Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

If I hold my fingers straight and look at them from the side, the area between my first and second finger joints (on the palm side of my fingers) is slightly concave. It's a slightly unusual shape that causes a couple problems:

• Muting extraneous strings can be a major challenge.
• Playing on a flat-radius fingerboard is downright painful at times.

Most people seem to have more meat between these finger joints, which makes for easier chording and probably accounts for the popularity of flatter fingerboard radii.

Anyone out there with a similarly concave finger shape? Do you experience these same fretting issues?

- Keith

 

[Markk]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

I didn't quite understand that. Picture maybe?

 

[sosomething]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

+1

I can't figure out what you're describing, exactly.

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

OK, I know nobody wants to see my fingers this close up, but I have no photo editing software at the office, so here's what I have to show you for now:

See how my fingers are concave between my first and second knuckles?

- Keith

 

[sosomething]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

Mostly I see how your fingertips bend backward and away from the palm of your hand - mine don't do that.

But with regard to the area of your finger you're referring to... It doesn't seem that weird to me. The part between the palm of my hand and 1st knuckle bulges out like yours does (rippling muscle) and from that point on it flattens out and stays flat all the way up to my fingertip. It's not concave like yours very slightly is, but I don't see it as different enough that I think it would introduce additional challenges while playing... who knows?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

I know what you're describing, but I don't think fingershape contributes to manufacturers making flatter fingerboards. I think it's got more to do with the whole "faster than thou" attitude that prevailed in the 80's.

 

[JordanM82]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

wow.... you have sloppy handwriting... j/k ...

ummm no my fingers are straight when in the extended and relaxed position.... I like a 12" radius fingerboard preferably 9.5" is comfortable as well.... anything beyond that in either direction my hands will start to hurt...

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

I don't think this picture is all that great a representation. Not that I have alien hands or anything, but I think the most annoying part is that fat first knuckle (closest to the palm). Also, there is plenty of meat below the first knuckle, but between the first and second knuckles it's like the only thing separating the strings from my finger bones is a thin swath of skin.

- Keith

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

You have odd hands. Do you work w/ your hands a lot? I can definitely see how that might cause you problems when fretting on a flat board. It's like you have almost no muscle in the pads of your fingers.

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

You have odd hands. Do you work w/ your hands a lot? I can definitely see how that might cause you problems when fretting on a flat board. It's like you have almost no muscle in the pads of your fingers.

Other than guitar and the devil's work, I don't do much work with my hands. I'm certainly not a muscular guy in general, so that may be part of it. The shape of my fingers is what is known as "waisted" -- like the fingers have an hourglass waist between knuckles.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

I blame my preference for flat fretboards on the fact that I learned classical guitar first.

I wouldn't rule out anatomy either, but wwhat you grew up on also plays a major role.

 

[donnievaz]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

You have odd hands. Do you work w/ your hands a lot? I can definitely see how that might cause you problems when fretting on a flat board. It's like you have almost no muscle in the pads of your fingers.

No one has muscles in their fingers at all. All the muscles that control your fingers are in your forearm and hand.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

I'd say just practice and adapt. I'm not sure if that's the cure, but for me it was. Switching between my Lite Ash Stratocaster and Showmaster HH (9.5 radius and normal frets versus 15.75" radius and XJ frets) used to give me problems, but I read something that John Fogerty said made me think again about selling the Showmaster HH. He said that the cure is to practice more. He said he used to be a Les Paul 24.75" scale fan because he thought his fingers couldn't do 25.5" scale. Then he bought an Axis and found that with practice his hands adapted.

I'm just trying to save you some time and money. I sold my Showmaster HH before (or was it after?) I read that and bought a Schecter C-1 Classic. I should've probably kept the Showmaster anyways, it would've saved me about $200 in selling it for a lower price and then buying a more expensive guitar.

Still, maybe a guitar teacher could give you better advice than I can....

 

[Markk]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

Mostly I see how your fingertips bend backward and away from the palm of your hand - mine don't do that.

They most definitely should not!

No one has muscles in their fingers at all. All the muscles that control your fingers are in your forearm and hand.

I concur, although that picture is 2003. Medicine changes all the time!


I'm no doctor but I'd diagnose that as weird....


...j/king. But honestly, I don't seem to have this 'problem' and can't really see how it would be so debilitating to your playing.

 

[Mr. B]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

People who have fingers that are all the exactly the same length should buy Ibanez. If your pinky and first finger are longer than your middle and ring fingers, you should play vintage fenders. If you have no fingers, you should play fretless bass guitar.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

By the way, my finger joints do the same thing on some fingers, but only when I'm intentionally flexing them out. When I practice and force my fingers to think "curved" while I play, it feels much better and they don't do that, which is why I'm saying it's practice. You may have to slow down and practice more mind-over-body, like I had to. However, now I can go from my Lite Ash (9.5" modern C that feels more like a soft V) to my C-1 Classic (16" radius and thicker neck) without any problems: I just have to think while I play, but I'm not drowning in mental load while trying to "just play". Honestly I think it's more about mind over body and practice. I sure hope this helps you.

As for fretboard radius, however, 7-9"-ish fretboard radii are going to feel better for playing chords down low, due to how our hands tend to grip things in a round shape, versus higher frets and string bends do better on higher radii necks so that you don't get fret-out. The perfect neck is supposedly compound radius, for what it's worth, so that you have the best of both worlds. I did that research today.

Have you ever played a classical guitar in the classical guitar seated playing position? Try it some time: it's very comfortable, much more so than sitting or standing with an electric (at least it is to me). The classical seated position is probably not going to work with the electric guitars you have, which is why I say "classical guitar" while in that position....

Besides, don't be afraid to slow-practice and do mind-over-body stuff to get your body to do things properly. Almost any other instrument out there requires as much, if not more. I had to learn to play as if my "hands are on top of a bubble" while playing piano, but I noticed that as I got used to it, my hands didn't hurt even after 3 hours or more of sustained practice (assuming I was paying attention). Even singing is the same: as you learn to sing "properly", it becomes easier with time, and then eventually it's a learned pattern and it comes naturally. Cello players, whose instrument is similar to ours in terms of note-to-note stretch, still have to retrain their bodies to play without pain.

 

[Sludgenutz]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

Have you ever played a classical guitar in the classical guitar seated playing position? Try it some time: it's very comfortable, much more so than sitting or standing with an electric (at least it is to me). The classical seated position is probably not going to work with the electric guitars you have, which is why I say "classical guitar" while in that position....

Yup, I have as many bad habits as anyone, but I think those old dudes did it right back in the day, with that seemingly stiff yet ultimately brilliant classical sitting position! From the players fretting hand, it all starts with the thumb placed very near the centerline of the back of the neck. This thumb position lays the ground for the fretting fingers to be used in a "pinching" motion.

It is almost as if there were no neck there at all...but rather, pinching motions between the pad of the thumb, and the tips each of the four fretting hand fingers.

Here, you see this very good player using the flat rear surface of the neck, and you don't often see his thumb. "Apeing" the neck with the thumb is natural and common with steel string guitars, with their less robust neck profiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp9OKuxgLE&feature=related

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

Yup, I have as many bad habits as anyone, but I think those old dudes did it right back in the day, with that seemingly stiff yet ultimately brilliant classical sitting position! From the players fretting hand, it all starts with the thumb placed very near the centerline of the back of the neck. This thumb position lays the ground for the fretting fingers to be used in a "pinching" motion.

It is almost as if there were no neck there at all...but rather, pinching motions between the pad of the thumb, and the tips each of the four fretting hand fingers.

Here, you see this very good player using the flat rear surface of the neck, and you don't often see his thumb. "Apeing" the neck with the thumb is natural and common with steel string guitars, with their less robust neck profiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp9OKuxgLE&feature=related

That was a big part of my fix too: put thumb in middle back of neck. Once I started doing that, everything felt a lot better, except maybe some open chords.

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

One of the bigger issues for me is playing bar chords. Because my fingers don't lay well across the fretboard, some notes can end up sounding dead. (This is more of an issue with bar chords that include notes taken from the first finger laying across the board.)

- Keith

 

[wanmei1]

Re: Finger Shape and Fretboard Radius

If I hold my fingers straight and look at them from the side, the area between my first and second finger joints (on the palm side of my fingers) is slightly concave. It's a slightly unusual shape that causes a couple problems:

• Muting extraneous strings can be a major challenge.
• Playing on a flat-radius fingerboard is downright painful at times.

Most people seem to have more meat between these finger joints, which makes for easier chording and probably accounts for the popularity of flatter fingerboard radii.

Anyone out there with a similarly concave finger shape? Do you experience these same fretting issues?

- Keith

Looks like the clarinet or saxophone for you !