Finish types?

Finish types?

  • Nitro

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • Poly

    Votes: 3 13.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23
Re: Finish types?

Hamer has not been lacquer for over a decade. It is actually a hybrid of sorts. This has been discussed a number of times on the Hamer board. they call it a "specially formulated guitar lacquer" that uses things not traditionally thought of nitro for sure.

"There's a lot of different "poly"s out there. Around 91/92 they transitioned from lacquer to a CAB urethane from the now out of business Lawrence McFadden company. Seagraves Coatings bought the LMF formulas and are manufacturing them so maybe they are still using it? Jol would refer to it as Urelac and the tech sheets from LMF called it "Urethane Guitar Lacquer".

http://www.hamerfanclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48155&hl=finish

I understand all this-It is still a lacquer based finish, and not a straight polyurethane finish., which is what I believe the OP is talking about. If instead he's talking lacquer hybrids, or acrylics, or what have you , then yes lets pick some nits. Jol himself stated over in the vault thread that the finish they are using is designed to SOUND like a nitro lacquer finish, but is a hybrid so they get extra durability which kind of throws a whole wrench in the "finish doesn't affect tone" argument anyway.
 
Re: Finish types?

Wood does not "breathe"

Lacquer does not "breathe"

There is no sonic difference in the type of finish

Only the thickness of the finish matters.

While of course they do not breathe, they do retain moisture, and wood can weep over time if not dried properly- I've seen it when building wooden traditional bows. In addition, moisture can dissipate through certain finishes.

So yeah calling it "breathing" is stupid, but the essence of the term fits.
 
Re: Finish types?

I understand all this-It is still a lacquer based finish, and not a straight polyurethane finish., which is what I believe the OP is talking about. If instead he's talking lacquer hybrids, or acrylics, or what have you , then yes lets pick some nits. Jol himself stated over in the vault thread that the finish they are using is designed to SOUND like a nitro lacquer finish, but is a hybrid so they get extra durability which kind of throws a whole wrench in the "finish doesn't affect tone" argument anyway.

Owning one, a 95, I promise it is nothing like a nitro finish really. It is a thin urethane of some type.
 
Re: Finish types?

I actually don't care about the type of finish. I like both poly and nitro based guitars but I tend to lean towards nitro just because I like the look older nitro has... but if I had to play a poly guitar for the rest of my life i wouldn't cry about it.
 
Re: Finish types?

As you can see...

this is beautiful...
Fender_Custom_Shop_Ultimate_Relic_63_Telecaster_R50516_1.jpg


and this is beautiful...
Hamer%20Studio%20Custom%201.JPG
 
Re: Finish types?

Owning one, a 95, I promise it is nothing like a nitro finish really. It is a thin urethane of some type.

I'm on my 3rd USA Hamer. I find more similarity in feel to Nitro, and the "look" of how the top comes through is more like Nitro- more "natural" if you will. However it is tougher like PRS's acrylic- not nearly as easily scratched/dinged/gouged as Nitro.
 
Re: Finish types?

We are going to have to agree to diagree here. The finish-thankfully-is not much like that of my USA Gibsons.
 
Re: Finish types?

While of course they do not breathe, they do retain moisture, and wood can weep over time if not dried properly- I've seen it when building wooden traditional bows. In addition, moisture can dissipate through certain finishes.

So yeah calling it "breathing" is stupid, but the essence of the term fits.

Yes, but moisture is not going to get paste the poly based sealer coat that sits under most lacquers. I am sure you know where I am coming from. :D
 
Re: Finish types?

That Tele up there looks pretty awesome, but man is that a pretty terible relic job...
 
Re: Finish types?

...man is that a pretty terible relic job...

I was going to say the same thing. Horrendous work. Plus I think relic-ing is about the most idiotic thing ever invented for guitars in the first place, unless perhaps trying to match new replacement parts to a valuable antique instrument.
 
Re: Finish types?

That Tele up there looks pretty awesome, but man is that a pretty terible relic job...

I was going to say the same thing. Horrendous work. Plus I think relic-ing is about the most idiotic thing ever invented for guitars in the first place, unless perhaps trying to match new replacement parts to a valuable antique instrument.

Yeah, pretty lame. I just posted the first beat up guitar I found, noticed the bad relicing this morning.
 
Re: Finish types?

Yes, but moisture is not going to get paste the poly based sealer coat that sits under most lacquers. I am sure you know where I am coming from. :D

Yes, some companies do that. They use poly type grain fillers under the nitro top coats. We saw that especially the ones with relatively thicker (not thin skinnies, we havent stripe them out yet) finish had that poly undercoats. And unfortunately, some respected brands and models have that little "trick"...

But if a guitar has relatively thin grain fillers and top coats, then moisture of wood may dissipate.

But if that issue is that important, then why not prefer one or two coat of tung oil, lanseed oil or shellac? They are much natural (not plastics which some calls poly finishes) and they may become much more thinner???
 
Re: Finish types?

Well, heres another vote for Nitro.

Yeah, I know that Nitro is more delicate than Poly and I know that it keeps shrinking over the years but I really like those qualities and having owned a few guitars, I'm also aware that nitro finished guitars dry out, the finish shrinks and the guitars begin to sound better and better. Thats why when I bought an EJ Strat. Well OK, I love the neck, the two piece body, the pickups and the traditional hardware but the finish was a huge plus for me and even after three short years, I can see that the lacquer is shrinking, the grain is coming through and the guitar is picking up small dings and scratches. I like that!

On the other side of the coin, when I needed an acoustic, I bought a MIC Epi Masterbuilt. Whoever sprayed the poly on that one (Probably a computer aided machine.) did a great job. The finish is perfectly even, very thin and the guitar sounded like a vintage Martin right off of the dealers wall. All it took was good materials, well thought out light weight construction and great execution. Good job Epi!

Lastly, I own a few Fender MIM's and Squires but I don't even consider those bodies to be "finished". It's more like they've been encapsulated! The Strat is one of the "Satin" finish models and as an experiment, I sanded about 2/3 of the poly off the body and then polished it up. Results? Acoustically the guitar livened up a tiny bit and it looks a lot better but theres still a lot of sound deadening material on there, so I guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for a better Strat body to refinish in Nitro and use for a rebuild. It's unfortunate that Fender and some other companies feel the need to pour thick layers of plastic on their guitars. Sure, it lowers reject numbers and increases profits but its at the expense of overall quality and thats the way it's going to be until the buying public demands better instruments in exchange for their hard earned dollars.

PS Ayrton:

If the woods used in Guitars don't "breathe", why do guitars need to be humidified in dry climates?

Lacquer doesn't breath but it does keep shrinking deeper into the wood for the life of the instrument. That makes a difference doesn't it?

I would argue that there are sonic differences between the finishes and as time passes, those differences are accentuated. My Epi will probably sound the same in 40 years as it does now, while my Martins will get better and better. Doesn't that apply to electrics too?

Finish thickness matters. Period.
 
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Re: Finish types?

The Suhr videos posted earlier are excellent. Tom Anderson is another guy using a non nitro finish...for the same reasons John does. As John puts it, paint doesnt have a tone, in the case of nitro it reacts differently in cold than in heat so for the people that think they can hear a nitro finish are they hearing hot or cold nitro? What you want is a very thin finish that doesnt dull the wood of the guitar. This can be done with either kind of paint.

You CAN spray a poly very, very thin and the wood will still 'breathe'...which really just means allow vapor to go from the surrounding environment to the instrument.
 
Re: Finish types?

I disagree that you won't hear any tonal difference. Nitro will definitely make an improvement. A good friend of mine just bought a used R8 Les Paul & was unhappy with a few things about it. Mainly the finish. It was a heavy poly based finish. He brought it to a local luthier who stripped the guitars and refinished it in Nitro & the guitar had a whole lot more life to it after that.
<snip>

In that case your friends R8 had been refinished before he got it....OR you are dealing with a placebo effect and a VERY unethical person who refinished the instrument.
 
Re: Finish types?

This is one of those issues that only matters in the hypothetical. If I'm sitting around thinking about putting together a partscaster or looking at specs for a new model from Company X, I may spend some time worrying about what the paint is made of.

But when I buy an instrument, I'm just thinking about how it feels and sounds and looks. Not always in that order. I can't recall ever sitting in a store trying to choose between two otherwise identical instruments with different finish compositions.
 
Re: Finish types?

16 coats of clear lacquer on this home made guitar, finished over ColorTone stain (Stew-Mac)

Needed to wait at least 4 hours between coats.
 
Re: Finish types?

The poly just doesn't seem to wear especially on a maple fretboard. Does anyone have a suggestion to thin the poly on maple necks?
 
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