Firebird pickup in a Tele - need some input

[Supernautilus]

Are you having the bridge pickup overpowered by the neck?

Sadly yes. I started out with the Broadcaster. But I just couldn't get a good balance. Then I switched to a Jerry Donahue and that was a little better. Still tweaking it though,

The double volume is neat, I like to switch pickups with a flick, that’s me though.

Well I'm using a 3 way switch too, just like you. It's a low profile toggle switch. You can see it at the top of the control plate in the pic I posted.

 

[Supernautilus]

freefrog
ToneFiddler

Heya guys, can I ask you another question about this cap mod? So I got the 10nf cap in and installed it. I like it so far. A little more effective than the 22.

The problem is that I'm getting a weird effect in the middle position. The tone has a weird hollow sound, like a cocked wah. I'm pretty sure I read about this somewhere as a side effect of this mod. Something to do with phase but I can't remember.

Are there any wiring tricks to compensate for this? Or is this just a trade off that I have to deal with if I want to use this mod? Because I use the middle position and lot and I DO NOT like the sound of it. Very strange tone. Not my thing at all. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!

 

[freefrog]

freefrog
ToneFiddler

Heya guys, can I ask you another question about this cap mod? So I got the 10nf cap in and installed it. I like it so far. A little more effective than the 22.

The problem is that I'm getting a weird effect in the middle position. The tone has a weird hollow sound, like a cocked wah. I'm pretty sure I read about this somewhere as a side effect of this mod. Something to do with phase but I can't remember.

Are there any wiring tricks to compensate for this? Or is this just a trade off that I have to deal with if I want to use this mod? Because I use the middle position and lot and I DO NOT like the sound of it. Very strange tone. Not my thing at all. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!

Yes what you experiment in mid position is a side effect of the series cap mod: this cap makes the neck pickup act like a VariTone for the bridge one, to sum it up in a simplistic way. I've explained that and shared frequency response screenshots showing it in my topic on MLP (the one mentioned in post 28).

My own strategy to avoid this is to use other components : resistive-inductive networks in parallel with pickups instead of series caps (it's also explained in my topic on MLP).

I don't see how it could be avoided by other means but to be honest, I've not dug the problem, since I prefer other solutions. I'm gonna do some 5spice sims in order to see if it can be corrected and will report the results...

 

[freefrog]

NOTE, since I can't edit the answer above for whatever reason - I'm always a bit stupid before my morning coffee... it should be possible to short the series cap when the selector is in mid position. Let me a bit of time to think about the wiring allowing to do that. If Tone-Fiddler or someone else comes with the solution in the meantime, just lemme know, thx...

Let's EDIT this NOTE now...

Schematic below as it came to my cloudy mind of the early morning. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 3 ways Tele switch. Series cap "C" engaged only in neck position. Add a resistor across the legs of this cap "C" if needed - was too lazy to add it, thx for your understanding.

 

[Supernautilus]

NOTE, since I can't edit the answer above for whatever reason - I'm always a bit stupid before my morning coffee... it should be possible to short the series cap when the selector is in mid position. Let me a bit of time to think about the wiring allowing to do that. If Tone-Fiddler or someone else comes with the solution in the meantime, just lemme know, thx...

Let's EDIT this NOTE now...

Schematic below as it came to my cloudy mind of the early morning. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 3 ways Tele switch. Series cap "C" engaged only in neck position. Add a resistor across the legs of this cap "C" if needed - was too lazy to add it, thx for your understanding.

Thanks for the info but I'm using a 3 way toggle not a blade switch. I'll post pics below showing the wiring I'm using.

(pls excuse the blue painters tape, it's for getting the plate on and off quickly while I experiment lol)

 

[Supernautilus]

Is that parallel network thing hard to do? Can you give me a wiring diagram for it?

 

[freefrog]

Thanks for the info but I'm using a 3 way toggle not a blade switch. I'll post pics below showing the wiring I'm using.

(pls excuse the blue painters tape, it's for getting the plate on and off quickly while I experiment lol)

Well, I've no solution for your guitar as it's wired, then. Sorry for that...

 

[freefrog]

Is that parallel network thing hard to do? Can you give me a wiring diagram for it?

The "parallel network thing" is not hard to do: it's just an inductor (a dummy coil) in parallel with the pickup and in series with a ballast resistor if needed. The tricky part is to find components with the proper specs. If you don't have an inductance meter and a way to measure electrically the resonant peak of your pickups, the mod will be a shot in the dark.

A "ready-made solution" would be to use a Bill Lawrence Q-filter but they have the downside to work well with powerful pickups and a lot less with normal ones. So, putting TWO Q-filters in parallel with your existing pickup might be necessary - albeit I can't even guarantee that it would work since I can't test your instrument with our lab gear.

EDIT - I've devoted a thread to dummy coils recently, here, on the Duncan forum. Link, FWIW:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...-changing-the-voicing-of-pickups…#post6244220

 

[Supernautilus]

freefrog Ok no worries, thanks for the info. I'll have to figure something else out then. No biggie. It's the journey not the destination, right?

 

[ToneFiddler]

NOTE, since I can't edit the answer above for whatever reason - I'm always a bit stupid before my morning coffee... it should be possible to short the series cap when the selector is in mid position. Let me a bit of time to think about the wiring allowing to do that. If Tone-Fiddler or someone else comes with the solution in the meantime, just lemme know, thx...

Let's EDIT this NOTE now...

Schematic below as it came to my cloudy mind of the early morning. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 3 ways Tele switch. Series cap "C" engaged only in neck position. Add a resistor across the legs of this cap "C" if needed - was too lazy to add it, thx for your understanding.

that's the way to do it, and i have several teles this way. Not possible with the normal toggle
Sometimes i have the highpass on the push pull pot, so i have both and wouldn't use the highpass in the middle.
The cap adds a 90 degree phase shift, that's why you get kind of an out of phase shift but only half way there.

 

[Supernautilus]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help anyways.

I'm actually thinking about maybe trying a standard size humbucker in the bridge of this Tele. This current setup just isn't doing it for me. A Kluson Tele HB bridge is about 55 bucks or so. And I actually have a number of humbuckers on hand to use if I wanted.

What do you guys think is a standard size humbucker that would match well with the SM-1n?

On hand I have a:
59 bridge
Seth Lover neck
A2P neck
Jazz neck

Would any of these work you think? Or something else perhaps? :?:

 

[freefrog]

The cap adds a 90 degree phase shift, that's why you get kind of an out of phase shift but only half way there.

Yeah and as I said, I like to think of the result as an equivalent of what a VariTone does: in the same way it puts an inductor in series with a capacitor and the whole in parallel with a pickup... The "inductor" is active in the case discussed here, since it's the neck pickup... but it works sonically like a VariTone, to me (I've shared frequency response screenshots illustrating that in my topic on MLP). Hence the cocked wah effect evoked by Supernautilus.

 

[freefrog]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help anyways.

I'm actually thinking about maybe trying a standard size humbucker in the bridge of this Tele. This current setup just isn't doing it for me. A Kluson Tele HB bridge is about 55 bucks or so. And I actually have a number of humbuckers on hand to use if I wanted.

What do you guys think is a standard size humbucker that would match well with the SM-1n?

On hand I have a:
59 bridge
Seth Lover neck
A2P neck
Jazz neck

Would any of these work you think? Or something else perhaps? :?:

The SM1 has a pointy resonant peak (a high Q factor). The full sized HB with the closest response is the Jazz, AFAIK. Now, the Seth Lover is my absolute favourite among Duncan HB's so I'd try this one too... as I'd probably check is the bassier response of the A2P is not interesting in bridge position... and of course, I'd mount the 59,just in case.
LOL.
What I'm trying to say is that I've no idea of what would sound good in your guitar/ with your rig / to your ears. I'd actually try all of the mentioned pickups.
But you're not me so do what you want and be happy. Let us know which model you finally prefer.

 

[freefrog]

Supernautilus
No way to reply to your PM! For whatever reason, I've got multiple error messages. I'm forced to paste the core of my answer below (fortunately, I had the idea to keep it in a Word doc). Thx for your understanding...

"[...]
A 47nF series cap shouldn't cut much bass, it's true. In mid position, it should make the mid scoop less deep and lower pitched but wider...
I'd share a 5Spice sim if it was possible but the message box doesn't allow me to download pics directly from my computer. :-/
So, all I can say is that a 10nF cap in series with a SM1 + a P.A.F. style humbucker in parallel = a narrow mid scoop @ 630hz. With a 47nF series cap, the same circuit gives a wider scoop, less deep, whose center frequency is 314hz approximatively. The mid scoop might actually be more noticeable in the SECOND case (when I enable the VariTone in my semi-hollow, the greater the value of the cap in series with the choke, the more low mids and bass it cuts).
Now, the result depends on the respective output levels of pickups so I don't know what it would give empirically...
But I don't see no solution to avoid the downsides of series caps in this case.
Side note: I like the SM1 that I've in bridge position of an Epi Wilshire. But it's a pickup with a firm "personality" and I understand which problem you're facing with it. FWIW, I remember to have worked on a Duncan designed mini-hum, mounted in some Squier vintage modified SSH. This mini-hum was not very good : it was probably loaded with a ceramic magnet and tonally generic / bland. But in the mentioned Tele, it was clean and clear sounding, very nice to my ears.
Google "Squier Vintage Modified SSH Tele" if you want to see what I mean.
Hope you'll find a solution. Have a nice day...
FF"

 

[Supernautilus]

I believe I had a revelation about this pickup over the holiday. I think I had it installed too close to the neck in my partcaster, which was overemphasizing the fundamental. I tried moving it over to my Affinity Tele, along with the JD, and it sounded much better. Then I noticed the SM-1 was noticeably father away from the neck, due to the location of the pickguard cutout. I measured the difference at about a half a centimeter. So it appears this pickup is very sensitive to placement. Lesson learned!

 

[jeremy]

my antiquity ii fb pup is in the stock fender rout of an mia tele. no pickguard. not sure what the measurement is, but even small changes make a big difference

 

[ToneFiddler]

yeah 5mm different PU position makes a noticable change, no matter the pickup (type)

 

[jeremy]

id say even less than that makes a noticeable difference actually