Firebird pickup in a Tele - need some input

[freefrog]

I always set height by ears so I'd not feel meaningful to give any advice about this.

"Still a bit dark": my SM1 bridge measures 2.56H (inductance lower than with a SSL1 Strat pickup) but has its resonant peak at the same location than a neck mini-hum measuring 3.6H.

The only explanation coming to my mind is a relatively high stray capacitance of the pickup itself, potentially due to wax potting.

Dewaxing it would be a "pain in the bottom part of the body" and wouldn't make sense with such a construction.

A no-load tone pot would make the resonant peak more peaky but without shifting it up in the audio range.

A paradoxical solution would be to darken a bit the bridge pickup thx to a small capacitor from its hot to ground. The sound should stay "natural" until a capacitance of more than 1nF so any value between 100pF and 1nF / 1000pF can be tried until the proper tonal balance is found.
Then a lower capacitance cable can be used from guitar to first input if ever brightness is necessary for both pickups. Sommer Spirit LLX has still the lowest capacitance on the market AFAIK and is still not expensive here in Europe (although 10' of LLX make a guitar sound as bright as if it was played through 3' of regular guitar cable only).

FWIW. HTH.

 

[Supernautilus]

I always set height by ears so I'd not feel meaningful to give any advice about this.

"Still a bit dark": my SM1 bridge measures 2.56H (inductance lower than with a SSL1 Strat pickup) but has its resonant peak at the same location than a neck mini-hum measuring 3.6H.

The only explanation coming to my mind is a relatively high stray capacitance of the pickup itself, potentially due to wax potting.

Dewaxing it would be a "pain in the bottom part of the body" and wouldn't make sense with such a construction.

A no-load tone pot would make the resonant peak more peaky but without shifting it up in the audio range.

A paradoxical solution would be to darken a bit the bridge pickup thx to a small capacitor from its hot to ground. The sound should stay "natural" until a capacitance of more than 1nF so any value between 100pF and 1nF / 1000pF can be tried until the proper tonal balance is found.
Then a lower capacitance cable can be used from guitar to first input if ever brightness is necessary for both pickups. Sommer Spirit LLX has still the lowest capacitance on the market AFAIK and is still not expensive here in Europe (although 10' of LLX make a guitar sound as bright as if it was played through 3' of regular guitar cable only).

FWIW. HTH.

Thx for the info. Yeah, I'm not sure I want to take this thing apart to dewax it. I did that once with a humbucker. It wasn't hard but as you said the construction of this SM-1 might not allow that and I don't want to ruin it right after I just bought it lol.

Another option is the Jerry Donahue. I have a JD on hand that I was saving for another project. But I may have to try it in this guitar to see if it works any better. I have done some searches and people seem to like the SM-1/JD combo. The JD has more output and isn't as bright as the broadcaster so it might work. Unless I can figure something else out, I might try that next.

 

[ToneFiddler]

JD will be better than the broadcaster. STL-1B is really bright.
but the JD will not be ballsy enough for the big fundamental of the firebird for a perfect match. Just drop the firebird down and race the JD as close as it sounds good. Add a 10nf in series with the neck PU to cut some bass

 

[Supernautilus]

JD will be better than the broadcaster. STL-1B is really bright.
but the JD will not be ballsy enough for the big fundamental of the firebird for a perfect match. Just drop the firebird down and race the JD as close as it sounds good. Add a 10nf in series with the neck PU to cut some bass

Well, I just got done putting the JD in. That seems to have done the trick. The cap is a good idea and I'll keep it mind. I might not need it though. So far it sounds like the 500K volume pot was enough to get the SM-1 where it needed to be. Thanks for the tip though.

 

[Supernautilus]

JD will be better than the broadcaster. STL-1B is really bright.
but the JD will not be ballsy enough for the big fundamental of the firebird for a perfect match. Just drop the firebird down and race the JD as close as it sounds good. Add a 10nf in series with the neck PU to cut some bass

Hey I just wanted to let you know that I tried that cap trick by wiring it going into the volume pot. I didn't have a 10nf but I had a 22nf one on hand so I tried that instead. Much better!

It took me a few play sessions to realize just how bassy the SM-1 is. I tried lowering it but it just makes it sound weak and anemic. With the cap trick I was able to raise it up again and it sounds a lot better now. From what I've read, lower value caps cut more bass. I may order some 10nf caps just to see how they work.

Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for the tip. Very helpful!

 

[freefrog]

Hey I just wanted to let you know that I tried that cap trick by wiring it going into the volume pot. I didn't have a 10nf but I had a 22nf one on hand so I tried that instead. Much better!

It took me a few play sessions to realize just how bassy the SM-1 is. I tried lowering it but it just makes it sound weak and anemic. With the cap trick I was able to raise it up again and it sounds a lot better now. From what I've read, lower value caps cut more bass. I may order some 10nf caps just to see how they work.

Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for the tip. Very helpful!

Glad to see you satisfied.

As a footnote potentially useful for other players : a series cap must be wired AFTER any "normal" tone control or some issues will appear (if a tone control is after a series cap, it will behave like a 2d volume control, to be clear. Depends partly on the value of the cap used, of course, but it can be avoided by a simple reorganization in the order of parts).

 

[Supernautilus]

Glad to see you satisfied.

As a footnote potentially useful for other players : a series cap must be wired AFTER any "normal" tone control or some issues will appear (if a tone control is after a series cap, it will behave like a 2d volume control, to be clear. Depends partly on the value of the cap used, of course, but it can be avoided by a simple reorganization in the order of parts).

I found this explained elsewhere. But I don't have much choice as I'm running a VVT setup. So it's pickups > volume pots > toggle > master tone > output jack. I just wired the cap to the volume pot input coming from the neck pup. It seems to work fine. But then, I don't really use the tone control much if at all. So maybe I just didn't notice it.

 

[freefrog]

Yeah, not a problem if tone control is not used. Might be annoying otherwise. A while back, I've devoted to this question a whole topic with lab tests results and 5spice sims showing what is going on with series capacitors:

https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/on-“anti-mud”-caps-in-series-with-pickups-a-side-note.446786/

FWIW.

 

[ToneFiddler]

Glad I could help!

Yeah as long as you don‘t use the controls it doesn‘t matter where you place the cap.

But I agree with Freefrog it should be after the tone cap. That why used/use some stereo pots for „separate“ bridge and neck pots. But it can be done with the switch also.




10 nf is a good starting point.

I am currently using 6,8 nF coming from 4,7n. In this case 4,7n makes the neck thin. Bridge has more bass!

Will try 10nF in this because 6,8n is a wee too much.

You could use 2x 20nf in series for 10nf.
​At least for testing

 

[Supernautilus]

Glad I could help!

Yeah as long as you don‘t use the controls it doesn‘t matter where you place the cap.

But I agree with Freefrog it should be after the tone cap. That why used/use some stereo pots for „separate“ bridge and neck pots. But it can be done with the switch also.




10 nf is a good starting point.

I am currently using 6,8 nF coming from 4,7n. In this case 4,7n makes the neck thin. Bridge has more bass!

Will try 10nF in this because 6,8n is a wee too much.

You could use 2x 20nf in series for 10nf.
​At least for testing

Hey there I was wondering if I could ask you a question about this mod. I did some searching and I guess this is a version of the “Artie Demud Mod”. The original calls for a 500K resistor in parallel with the cap. What I can’t find any information on is what the resistor actually does and/or how other resistor values would affect the operation of the mod. If you have any information on that, I’d like to hear about if you don’t mind sharing. Thanks a lot.

 

[ToneFiddler]

[No message]

 

[ToneFiddler]

1 MEG pot is even better than 500k.
If you have the pot on a low setting, the cap is more or less out of the circuit -> now low cut.
If the pot is full up -> cap active -> low cut / high pass.
and everything in between.

i currently like cap only better, since the low cut is steeper and you cut more of the deepest lows and less low mids (depending on the cap value where the low cut begins, of course)
With the pot the low cut is not as steep and in the end you cut more low mids but more deep lows are left in the signal since you would use a smaller/lower cap value for the same amount of bass cut.

 

[Supernautilus]

1 MEG pot is even better than 500k.
If you have the pot on a low setting, the cap is more or less out of the circuit -> now low cut.
If the pot is full up -> cap active -> low cut / high pass.
and everything in between.

i currently like cap only better, since the low cut is steeper and you cut more of the deepest lows and less low mids (depending on the cap value where the low cut begins, of course)
With the pot the low cut is not as steep and in the end you cut more low mids but more deep lows are left in the signal since you would use a smaller/lower cap value for the same amount of bass cut.

Hey thanks for the info but I’m afraid I’m a little confused.

I’m specifically talking about the mod with the capacitor and resistor in parallel, as shown in the pic below. I wasn’t talking about the volume pot. My apologies if I didn’t explain it correctly. I wanted to know what the resistor does in this mod:

 

[freefrog]

I wanted to know what the resistor does in this mod:


filedata/fetch?id=6257050&d=1699313689

It tames the effect of the series cap, making the hi-pass filter less steep. See the 5spice simulation below, picturing in a simplified way the frequency response of some generic humbucker through a standard wiring harness (and where the vertical line is roughly at the frequency of an open low E string, FWIW).

 

[Supernautilus]

It tames the effect of the series cap, making the hi-pass filter less steep. See the 5spice simulation below, picturing in a simplified way the frequency response of some generic humbucker through a standard wiring harness (and where the vertical line is roughly at the frequency of an open low E string, FWIW).

Hmm, interesting. Seems like with the resistor it doesn't do hardly anything. But couldn't you just use a bigger cap to reduce the bass cut?

I guess it would help if that graph showed without any mods, so you could see the baseline response. Hmm...

 

[ToneFiddler]

Freefrog: Perfect! That‘s what I was trying to draw.

First pic. effect of the pot/resistor value parallel to the series cap

other pic. effect of the series value cap without any parallel cap

 

[freefrog]

Freefrog: Perfect! That‘s what I was trying to draw.

First pic. effect of the pot/resistor value parallel to the series cap

other pic. effect of the series value cap without any parallel cap

Well, my goal was to avoid you this work: sorry if I haven't been fast enough. ;-)

@Supernautilus: without cap, the bass response would just be a straight horizontal line, following the dots just under the text. In real life, that's not quite how pickups react, unless one uses an "integrator" circuit converting the voltage in current... but as most theoricians use this kind of simplified pics with a flat response before resonance, I've opted for the same model.

 

[RockinProf]

I'm a little late to this party but, I have an all white limba tele I built where I have a Broadcaster style bridge pickup and a true to spec 63 Firebird in the neck. This is a great instrument that is incredibly versatile. The thing I like the most about it is that the Broadcaster and the Firebird balance very well with volume (even when the bridge pickup has a 470K pad to make it appropriately warm). Similarly, the lack of spikes and scoops in the Firebird make it tonally complement the Broadcaster especially well. I've tried many combos of pickups in a tele and this is the one that just sounds right.

My wiring strategy is to use a witchcraft or similar (I like the reliability of the Switchcraft) Gibson style three way toggle. I then use a 500K volume and a 300K tone. On the bridge pickup I solder a 470K resistor from the pickup output solder pad and solder the other side to the base plate. This gives the 500K volume pot the characteristics of a ~250K volume pot for a bit of warmth and typical teleness. Then from the input that comes from the bridge pickup on the switch I ru a lead to the tone pot. This leaves the neck pickup without a tone load when in the neck only position. I never use a tone control on a neck pickup so that works for me. beyond that I like a .033mFd capacitor and use the Fender Greasebucket wiring. I like it and it's very personalised wiring for a very personalised guitar.

 

[Supernautilus]

I'm a little late to this party but, I have an all white limba tele I built where I have a Broadcaster style bridge pickup and a true to spec 63 Firebird in the neck. This is a great instrument that is incredibly versatile. The thing I like the most about it is that the Broadcaster and the Firebird balance very well with volume (even when the bridge pickup has a 470K pad to make it appropriately warm). Similarly, the lack of spikes and scoops in the Firebird make it tonally complement the Broadcaster especially well. I've tried many combos of pickups in a tele and this is the one that just sounds right.

My wiring strategy is to use a witchcraft or similar (I like the reliability of the Switchcraft) Gibson style three way toggle. I then use a 500K volume and a 300K tone. On the bridge pickup I solder a 470K resistor from the pickup output solder pad and solder the other side to the base plate. This gives the 500K volume pot the characteristics of a ~250K volume pot for a bit of warmth and typical teleness. Then from the input that comes from the bridge pickup on the switch I ru a lead to the tone pot. This leaves the neck pickup without a tone load when in the neck only position. I never use a tone control on a neck pickup so that works for me. beyond that I like a .033mFd capacitor and use the Fender Greasebucket wiring. I like it and it's very personalised wiring for a very personalised guitar.

Wow, really pretty Tele! Looks like we had similar ideas haha. See mine below. Not quite the same but sort of the same vibe maybe. As you can see, I went VVT so I could have a 500K volume pot for the Firebird pup. Finding a good balance has still been tricky though. I’m trying some different mod tricks with caps and resistors, but there is always a trade off it seems. Work in progress.

 

[RockinProf]

Wow, really pretty Tele! Looks like we had similar ideas haha. See mine below. Not quite the same but sort of the same vibe maybe. As you can see, I went VVT so I could have a 500K volume pot for the Firebird pup. Finding a good balance has still been tricky though. I’m trying some different mod tricks with caps and resistors, but there is always a trade off it seems. Work in progress.

Very nice. Different than mine but with common features. Are you having the bridge pickup overpowered by the neck? I have my neck pickup bass side set at 9/64 and treble side at 7/64. The bridge pickup bass side is 6/64 and treble at 5/64. The bridge pickup is a little high for single coil norms for me. There are no artifacts and the intonation stayed true, so I’m good with it.

The double volume is neat, I like to switch pickups with a flick, that’s me though. Maybe a no load tone for the bridge might help too.