First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

[Daka3]

Hello, my name is David, and this is my very first post here at the SD forum. Let me briefly introduce myself: I've been using the JB/59 combo for around 20 years in my '67 reissue Gibson V - with great satisfaction. Recently, I got hold of an Epiphone Korina V, wanted to swap the stock Epi humbuckers for Duncans, and decided to try something new. I went for the Seth Lover neck and a PG in the bridge. Now, this is basically a very nice sounding set, but my problem is this: The new pickup combo doesn't react as I'm used to with the JB/59 combo. The Seth seems very muddy and lifeless when I roll my volume back - and I live on my volume control, depending on cleaned-up and semi-cleaned up tones for most of my rhythm work in the band. The PG, on the other hand, seems much more spiky in the bridge and with less body to it, than the JB in the other V.

Now I see (I should have done my homework better) that the SL and PG are both AII-based units, whereas my old and trusty JB/59 set is indeed AV. Will I ever get the new set to respond like I want it to, or do I need Alnico V's? I've tried tweaking general pickup height and polepiece ditto, but clean-up is still not quite there, even though the pickups sound good when dimed. I just need all my in-between sounds on the dial. CTS 500K pots and Jensen PIO cap, so we should be good there. What do you say? Ditch them and get the old, tried-and-true JB/59 set, or keep trying? Again, I like the sounds, the flexibility is not quite there yet. Any advice you may have on this is greatly welcomed.

I should say that I prefer to avoid treble-bleed mods as they generally sound weird to me, fizzy and spiky. I like the slight treble roll-off when you turn down the volume, but the SL just seems to lose so much character and punch when I roll it off a bit. Any experiences are greatly appreciated, and thank you for reading all this.

As a bonus, here are my two V's:

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum.

The first and most obvious point is that you are not comparing like with like. Different materials in the guitars, different bridge designs, different pickup output levels, different quality control pots.

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum.

The first and most obvious point is that you are not comparing like with like. Different materials in the guitars, different bridge designs, different pickup output levels, different quality control pots.

Thank you for your reply! You are, of course, absolutely correct, in fact, there is a bewildering array of variables if you start to think about it. Hard to be scientific about a problem such as mine, I know.

Maybe my question, put into a more direct form could be rephrased as this: Are there known differences between the clean-up capabilities and volume-knob flexibility between A2 and A5-type PAF's? I'm just trying to find out if I'm fighting an uphill battle with the otherwise very nice-sounding SL and PG units.

 

[lemonman]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum. As you've found, A2 & A5 pickups have quite different characteristics. A 59n is always going to have a sharper, treblier attack than a Seth Lover, A2Pro, etc. , in part because of the different magnets. And the overwound JB with its A5 mag is famous for its power & aggressive upper midrange cut, so an A2 PAF in the bridge, even an aggressive one like the PG, is going to be weaker.

My first thoughts? Put an A5 mag in the SLn, and try a 300k volume pot on the PGb; you may want to try an A5 there, too. If you're not interested in swapping magnets, then you'll probably want to switch to something A5. But remember, one of the main purposes for multiple guitars is to have them cover different territory. Putting the same pups you have in your other V, while it would sound somewhat different because of the wood & unit to unit variances, would to my thinking reduce the value of having it. Adjust/modify it as needed to please you, but learn to embrace the differences.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

The magnet really doesnt determine whether a pickup cleans up or not. Its output and EQ curve do but this is also dependent on your amp and pedal set up. But in general lower output will equal better clean up. Lots of A2 pickups are low output and will clean up but they will also go really soft in the highs really quick so it depends on what your after. Easier to judge each pickup on its own merits than trying to make generalities based on the mag type. Remember magnets on their own have no sound. They have to have windings and everything else along with it. So take each pickup as a whole unit.

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

These are the exact types of advice that I was hoping to get. 'Really soft in the highs really quickly' is a dead ringer for what I'm experiencing with these A2s. Just not used to that. The magnet swap sounds very interesting, especially, again, since I like the fundamental character of the SL and PG pickups, but just need the response to match what I'm used to more closely. I'll be looking into that - more homework!

The other point, IE, the need to get used to different pickup characteristics, indeed, the advantage of covering a broader range of sounds, is also very true. But we are (or should I say, I am) such creatures of habit, and the aural and tactile feel and response of the instrument over a great many years, is something that becomes second nature. I'll try to adapt, and give these units some more time before I start swapping or gutting them. Thank you for helping out here.

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Or maybe - this just occurred to me: Could they be swapped around? SL in the bridge, PG up in the neck? Can calibrated pickups be swapped regardless of their designated 'right' positions?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Yeah sure you can swap them. Its worth a shot

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

You've gone from what Seymour calls the "Hot Rodded Humbucker Set" to pickups that are closer to a "P.A.F. Reproduction Set." They're gonna sound different, especially in a big-ol' guitar like that. They're gonna need different amp settings, for one thing.

Plus...do you still have the factory electronics? If so, I'd try some quality pots, maybe even 1 or 2 MOhms.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum!

I gotta say, it's no wonder it doesn't respond like you're used to. The JB is kind of a monster pickup, and the PG really isn't.

I think if you're looking for "the same but different" then you should be looking at a bridge pickup that's kind of in the JB ballpark. It's a cliche on this forum to say this, but: one of the Custom variations will probably give you this - and it'd probably be best to start with the Custom 5 or a Custom 8 (the Custom 8 isn't a production pickup but can be ordered with no upcharge I think).

As for the neck pickup, if you like the 59, and how it responds to volume changes... I think I'd stick with it. It is a really nice pickup after all. It's definitely worth trying your Pearly Gates in there though, as it's a slightly beefed PAF and you might like it.

Magnet swapping sounds scary but it's actually fine - I'd say it's way easier than swapping the pickups in a guitar. About as hard as restringing a Floyd Rose or something, I guess. That will give you some more options. But if you're still inside the 21 days, just send 'em back and get something with more grunt.

 

[Aceman]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Yeah - the MAIN issue here, IMO, is that your ear wants a PG in an Epi to sound like a JB in a Gibson. It doesn't and won't. Epiphone is questionable wood and electronics period.

I say get another JB/59 combo if that's what you really dig. ALso, might replace the pots in the Epi with Gibsons.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Much as i love pearlies, i don't think its the right tool for the job in your case. You are used to the hot rodded sound, and vintage paf reproductions just aren't in the ballpark.
If you want something meaty but different to the JB/59 combo, try a custom/59 combo in the epi (500k pots all round). After that, you have the option of making them both sound more vintage by installing a2 magnets if you like (59A2/custom custom) or anywhere in between (59/custom 5) or 59/custom 8 etc.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

If you want something different but still similar I'd probably put a Custom in the bridge and a Jazz in the neck. It would give you a different flavor in the same ballpark.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Gotta try a Custom, dude. I could talk about the ins and outs of different lower-output pickups, etc. But you have to try a Custom of some sort.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum. Before you worry about swapping magnets, pickups or anything you need to make absolutely SURE that your Epi has 500K pots. I too live and die on my volume knob and although the Seth is warm I have nothing like what you describe. This leads me to believe you have 300K pots in a guitar can naturally be dark.

Check out the pots, then we can go from there.

Luke

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Yeah - the MAIN issue here, IMO, is that your ear wants a PG in an Epi to sound like a JB in a Gibson. It doesn't and won't. Epiphone is questionable wood and electronics period.

I say get another JB/59 combo if that's what you really dig. ALso, might replace the pots in the Epi with Gibsons.

Well, the wood are among the obvious differences, but this particular Epi really surprised me when I took of the pickguard, because it turns out, it's solid Korina. I too heard all of the veneer horror-stories (although those too can sound good, it seems), but mine is two pieces of rock-solid, bookmatched Korina. Turns out this particular one was made back in '01 at the Bohemia Musico-Dehlia plant in the Czech Republic. This is one of the places they made these Epis, but it's closed down now, ostensibly. So it's not your everyday veneered Epi V, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to buy it as a project Korina V.

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

Welcome to the forum. Before you worry about swapping magnets, pickups or anything you need to make absolutely SURE that your Epi has 500K pots. I too live and die on my volume knob and although the Seth is warm I have nothing like what you describe. This leads me to believe you have 300K pots in a guitar can naturally be dark.

Check out the pots, then we can go from there.

Luke

Thank you for your suggestion. See, posts like yours make me worried that something's awry inside this thing, with the wiring, maybe. Problem is, I don't do this stuff myself, so I need pro (and expensive) help every time something has to be tinkered with inside my guitars. The stock pots have been thrown out and swapped with CTS, that have been measured to be at least 500K. But someone suggested that I might even need 1 (or indeed, 2) megaohm pots for the top end to survive roll-off? The Seth is really, really wooly, but sounds good when dimed. Aggravating, as I need my sparkle and crunch. Thank you all for your help, I really do appreciate the suggestions and will look into getting my tech to measure everything once again. I never knew so much could depend on wiring, but I'm thinking that wiring issues might be my problem, if your Seth retains its top end as you say.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

nah 1 meg wont make any audible difference. 500k is 100% fine.
Vintage pups behave like vintage pups. Lots of guys like the roll off (myself included) and avoid running on 10 mostly. That's not you tho. We are all different in what we want from our rigs and there is no wrong or right.
You need pickups that deliver the sound you are after, not the sound that someone else thinks is best. Honestly, PG's are my favourite pickups and seths are many people's fave but thats got nothing to do with what works best for you. If you like your JB equipped axe and you like running pedal to the floor, then go for something that will do the job the way you want it to. I dont think either seths or pearlies are the right tool for the job in your case.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups

this particular Epi really surprised me when I took of the pickguard because, it turns out, it's solid Korina.

I hope that you are right about this. Check just inside the humbucker routs or the control cavity.

For the sounds that you expect of a Vee, only a JB, Custom or Distortion is going to deliver.

 

[Daka3]

Re: First post: Advice regarding SL and PG pickups


Bridge pickup cavity


Front ditto


Control cavity.