jalguitarman
Junior Member
Is the difference just in strength or does it impact the tone anyway? Is quartersawn ok for vintage tone?
Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
- Thread starter jalguitarman
- Start date
kramer.geetar
New member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Hey I wondered about this also before, got some good information from Musikraft when looking through their site. I'll paste for you....
Flat Sawn-Quarter Sawn:
One of the many options that we offer is the choice between Quarter Sawn and Flat Sawn woods for our necks. There are many questions that come up when discussing the differences between these two woods and hopefully we can try to answer some of those questions here and explain some of the differences as well. Shown here in this photo is a Flat Sawn neck with a standard fingerboard on the left and a Quarter sawn neck with a vintage veneer contoured fingerboard on the right. As you can see from the picture, the grain lines on the flat sawn neck are running left to right and the grain lines on the quarter sawn neck are running up and down. Quarter sawn and flat sawn woods are cut with a different grain orientation and come from different areas of the tree. This greatly affects the internal strength of both and subsequently, the quarter sawn neck tends to be a tighter grain and allot stronger and more stable than the flat sawn.The quarter sawn wood is usually very straight and rigid and the flat sawn is much more pliable. There are advantages to both types of woods. Due to its strength and stability, the quarter sawn is a great wood for use with heavier string gauges, unfinished necks, necks with a stronger dual acting truss rod, and longer necks like bass necks etc. There is also a difference in tone on these woods. The quarter sawn has a distinctly brighter tone due to its density. The Flat sawn neck tends to have a more mellow tone and is more pliable so it is better for use with vintage style, single acting truss rods and does very well with a hard finish but can also be left unfinished as well. Aesthetically speaking, the wood grain is much more visible on a flat sawn neck as opposed to a quarter sawn neck. Flamey and Birdseye necks are most often flat sawn.
Hey I wondered about this also before, got some good information from Musikraft when looking through their site. I'll paste for you....
Flat Sawn-Quarter Sawn:
One of the many options that we offer is the choice between Quarter Sawn and Flat Sawn woods for our necks. There are many questions that come up when discussing the differences between these two woods and hopefully we can try to answer some of those questions here and explain some of the differences as well. Shown here in this photo is a Flat Sawn neck with a standard fingerboard on the left and a Quarter sawn neck with a vintage veneer contoured fingerboard on the right. As you can see from the picture, the grain lines on the flat sawn neck are running left to right and the grain lines on the quarter sawn neck are running up and down. Quarter sawn and flat sawn woods are cut with a different grain orientation and come from different areas of the tree. This greatly affects the internal strength of both and subsequently, the quarter sawn neck tends to be a tighter grain and allot stronger and more stable than the flat sawn.The quarter sawn wood is usually very straight and rigid and the flat sawn is much more pliable. There are advantages to both types of woods. Due to its strength and stability, the quarter sawn is a great wood for use with heavier string gauges, unfinished necks, necks with a stronger dual acting truss rod, and longer necks like bass necks etc. There is also a difference in tone on these woods. The quarter sawn has a distinctly brighter tone due to its density. The Flat sawn neck tends to have a more mellow tone and is more pliable so it is better for use with vintage style, single acting truss rods and does very well with a hard finish but can also be left unfinished as well. Aesthetically speaking, the wood grain is much more visible on a flat sawn neck as opposed to a quarter sawn neck. Flamey and Birdseye necks are most often flat sawn.
metalchurch79
New member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
I prefer quartersawn, because they are more stable, and stronger.
I prefer quartersawn, because they are more stable, and stronger.
pzaxtl
Gibletsologist
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Wood moves tangential to the growth rings. With flatsawn lumber, dimensional movement occurs along the width; with quartersawn, that movement occurs along the thickness, which means that QS lumber moves much less with seasonal changes in humidity and temperature. Technically, if you had a piece of quartersawn lumber that was as thick as a piece of flatsawn lumber is wide, then the amount of dimensional change would be roughly the same. Nonetheless, quartersawn lumber is much more stable.
In addition to stability, quartersawn lumber is stronger in both tension and shear. That doesn't really matter with guitar bodies, but with necks, the difference is important!
I personally doubt that there is any discernable difference in tone between the two. I'm sure there is someone, somewhere that claims they can hear the differences in tone, but I don't believe it.
Wood moves tangential to the growth rings. With flatsawn lumber, dimensional movement occurs along the width; with quartersawn, that movement occurs along the thickness, which means that QS lumber moves much less with seasonal changes in humidity and temperature. Technically, if you had a piece of quartersawn lumber that was as thick as a piece of flatsawn lumber is wide, then the amount of dimensional change would be roughly the same. Nonetheless, quartersawn lumber is much more stable.
In addition to stability, quartersawn lumber is stronger in both tension and shear. That doesn't really matter with guitar bodies, but with necks, the difference is important!
I personally doubt that there is any discernable difference in tone between the two. I'm sure there is someone, somewhere that claims they can hear the differences in tone, but I don't believe it.
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Actually there should be a difference in tone & response, as the density is so different, but you've also got the body wood and amp in there effecting tone too. It would be pretty hard for the average player to tell what the cut of the neck wood does to his tone with all the other factors present too. A manufacturer or luthier could isolate this effect of the neck wood.
Actually there should be a difference in tone & response, as the density is so different, but you've also got the body wood and amp in there effecting tone too. It would be pretty hard for the average player to tell what the cut of the neck wood does to his tone with all the other factors present too. A manufacturer or luthier could isolate this effect of the neck wood.
Bludave
New member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
In general its an issue more with acoustic guitars. Quartersawn is more stable & less likely going to split as easily as flatsawn woods. Flatsawn can be prettier to look at, but it will move differently. For electrics I would just be concerned with the neck.
In general its an issue more with acoustic guitars. Quartersawn is more stable & less likely going to split as easily as flatsawn woods. Flatsawn can be prettier to look at, but it will move differently. For electrics I would just be concerned with the neck.
jalguitarman
Junior Member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Yeah thats what i am looking at is the neck in this case.
Yeah thats what i am looking at is the neck in this case.
jalguitarman
Junior Member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Cool!! Thanks That does help. I may stick with flatsawn. Although Eric Johnsons sig strat uses quartersawn so its llikely not bad, I would bet that the vintage fender sound was all flatsawn stuff. I am going with a single rod i have decided. All this means i have a neck going backonce i get ti. Oh well, live and learn. See i made 2 bobo boss. birdseye neck and double trussrod. Thing is it may sound good but at this point i am afiiad to try it.
Cool!! Thanks That does help. I may stick with flatsawn. Although Eric Johnsons sig strat uses quartersawn so its llikely not bad, I would bet that the vintage fender sound was all flatsawn stuff. I am going with a single rod i have decided. All this means i have a neck going backonce i get ti. Oh well, live and learn. See i made 2 bobo boss. birdseye neck and double trussrod. Thing is it may sound good but at this point i am afiiad to try it.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
If stability was all we care about we'd all be using Kramer aluminium neck-throughs by now.
I don't think that QS will be more stable as in how much does it bend when you turn a guitar with heavy tuners face-down. No way. You have the grain going the wrong way there.
It will be more stable against temperature and humidity changes and require less truss rod adjustments.
Obviously it will sound different if the stability is different.
If stability was all we care about we'd all be using Kramer aluminium neck-throughs by now.
I don't think that QS will be more stable as in how much does it bend when you turn a guitar with heavy tuners face-down. No way. You have the grain going the wrong way there.
It will be more stable against temperature and humidity changes and require less truss rod adjustments.
Obviously it will sound different if the stability is different.
vinterland
New member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Once again I bet no one would be able to tell a difference in tone between the two. These threads are amazing.
Once again I bet no one would be able to tell a difference in tone between the two. These threads are amazing.
jalguitarman
Junior Member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
It may sound kind of obsessive but such facts are helpful to know if you are really trying to nail an authentic tone be it a certain hard rock tone or something that is authentic vintage as in my situation.
how do you know unless you ask?? Unless you research??? unless you seek advice from those who have experiance where you are lacking??
It may sound kind of obsessive but such facts are helpful to know if you are really trying to nail an authentic tone be it a certain hard rock tone or something that is authentic vintage as in my situation.
how do you know unless you ask?? Unless you research??? unless you seek advice from those who have experiance where you are lacking??
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Actually, it's likely that this difference is much more audible than the difference between two pieces of regular cut maple.
If that was inaudible, why don't we all have allparts necks (with new frets) in our U.S. Fenders? Because we think the U.S. Fender neck sounds better.
Actually, it's likely that this difference is much more audible than the difference between two pieces of regular cut maple.
If that was inaudible, why don't we all have allparts necks (with new frets) in our U.S. Fenders? Because we think the U.S. Fender neck sounds better.
pzaxtl
Gibletsologist
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Blueman, I respect you opinion a great deal and have closely followed your postings, however, I gotta disagree with you on this one. The density of wood is in no way determined by how the wood is milled. Density is determined by the cellular structure of the wood and it's growth ring density. Slower growing trees produce denser lumber, which is why maple is heavier and denser than spruce. All Wood is composed principally of bundles of tubular cellulose structures that, under a microscope resemble drinking straws, bound together by lignin, which is more or less a glue. These structures run longitudinally along the length of the trunk and branches of a tree. How a piece of lumber is milled -- flatsawn or quartersawn -- in no way alters the physical density or arrangement of those structures. How a piece of lumber is milled simply determines how those structures are presented relative to the face grain and end grain of the board. Quartersawn lumber is not more dense than flatsawn, but it is more stable. Yes, I suppose that since QS presents the grain of the wood in a different orientation than flatsawn, it's possible that it affects the velocity of sound within the board differently than flatsawn, giving it a faster attack, (which supposedly QS lumber does) but that is not the same thing as affecting the tone of the wood. All in all, this is entirely subjective and the only way to prove it would be to flatsaw and quartersaw the exact same piece of wood and compare it to itself. That is the only way to definitively determine any change in response or tone based on how the lumber is milled, but that is not possible.
Blueman, I respect you opinion a great deal and have closely followed your postings, however, I gotta disagree with you on this one. The density of wood is in no way determined by how the wood is milled. Density is determined by the cellular structure of the wood and it's growth ring density. Slower growing trees produce denser lumber, which is why maple is heavier and denser than spruce. All Wood is composed principally of bundles of tubular cellulose structures that, under a microscope resemble drinking straws, bound together by lignin, which is more or less a glue. These structures run longitudinally along the length of the trunk and branches of a tree. How a piece of lumber is milled -- flatsawn or quartersawn -- in no way alters the physical density or arrangement of those structures. How a piece of lumber is milled simply determines how those structures are presented relative to the face grain and end grain of the board. Quartersawn lumber is not more dense than flatsawn, but it is more stable. Yes, I suppose that since QS presents the grain of the wood in a different orientation than flatsawn, it's possible that it affects the velocity of sound within the board differently than flatsawn, giving it a faster attack, (which supposedly QS lumber does) but that is not the same thing as affecting the tone of the wood. All in all, this is entirely subjective and the only way to prove it would be to flatsaw and quartersaw the exact same piece of wood and compare it to itself. That is the only way to definitively determine any change in response or tone based on how the lumber is milled, but that is not possible.
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jtougas
New member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Activate powers of necrothread resurrection!
When it comes to flatsawn necks, how much does it matter which direction the grain cupping go in - if it does at all? My memory is teasing me that even minimal cupping towards the fingerboard is bad, and that the outer edges of the ring should pull downward, if your looking at the heel with the fretboard up. Am I wrong in this?
Activate powers of necrothread resurrection!
When it comes to flatsawn necks, how much does it matter which direction the grain cupping go in - if it does at all? My memory is teasing me that even minimal cupping towards the fingerboard is bad, and that the outer edges of the ring should pull downward, if your looking at the heel with the fretboard up. Am I wrong in this?
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
The fretboard glued on there helps a lot for stability......in fact even headstock veneer thickness helps. The wood type also makes a difference. Flatsawn tends to mean maple, which whilst not immune to cupping, is certainly more able than say mahogany to resist movement.
The fretboard glued on there helps a lot for stability......in fact even headstock veneer thickness helps. The wood type also makes a difference. Flatsawn tends to mean maple, which whilst not immune to cupping, is certainly more able than say mahogany to resist movement.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Always had Flatsawn Maple necks until this build:
View attachment 66804
View attachment 66805
which has a Quartersawn Roasted Maple neck and it is the best playing neck I've ever owned! I don't know if it is because it is Roasted or Quartersawn...or the combination of the two but the neck sustains like crazy and feels better than any neck I've used. Vote here for QS!...and roasted maple
Always had Flatsawn Maple necks until this build:
View attachment 66804
View attachment 66805
which has a Quartersawn Roasted Maple neck and it is the best playing neck I've ever owned! I don't know if it is because it is Roasted or Quartersawn...or the combination of the two but the neck sustains like crazy and feels better than any neck I've used. Vote here for QS!...and roasted maple
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
+1 for roasting
+1 for roasting
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Just played a quarter sawn roasted neck tonight on an expensive fender strat. It was a all maple neck and oil finish. It was a custom shop guitar. I can tell you guys the quarter sawn neck has a sharper attack. I would not say it's abnoxious and unpleasant but it is a sharper attack kind of like the difference between alder and ash for the bodies. How much does it effect the tone? Well to me it's about 20 percent but not more. I wouldn't spend the wod for a quarter sawn neck expecting it to radically alter your tone, pickups would be a much more substantial tone change then adding a quarter sawn neck. However, if your concerned about neck stability like traveling between humid and dry areas, or live in a dry climate and having frets pop up on the neck or having to redress and file down sharp frets on the neck from seasonal changes occasionally then you might add those issues with the desire to have a sharper attack and decide to spring extra for a quarter sawn neck. It's one of those things that with other minor changes like a nitrous finish and bent steel saddles on your bridge that add up to better tone on the whole. So to put this in perspective. ........bent steel saddles on the bridge 15 percent difference in tone - nitrous finish 20%-quarter sawn neck 20%. There are other things as well such as improved electronic parts which don't significantly change the tone but all things minor changes added up will amount to a significant change in tone when your done. If I wanted to significantly alter tone the fastest and cheapest way I would start with the pickups before tinkering with everything else. Some of you may not like the tone of bent steel saddles or maybe not the sharper attack of a quartersawn neck becouse good tone is subjective and of personal taist. If your tone is heavily distorted most all the time I'm not sure you will even hear much difference if you made all these subtle changes anyway. In that case you may only hear a little sharper and more pronounced gain on your chords and notes and that's somthing the average drunk dope in the audience probably wouldn't notice much anyway.
Just played a quarter sawn roasted neck tonight on an expensive fender strat. It was a all maple neck and oil finish. It was a custom shop guitar. I can tell you guys the quarter sawn neck has a sharper attack. I would not say it's abnoxious and unpleasant but it is a sharper attack kind of like the difference between alder and ash for the bodies. How much does it effect the tone? Well to me it's about 20 percent but not more. I wouldn't spend the wod for a quarter sawn neck expecting it to radically alter your tone, pickups would be a much more substantial tone change then adding a quarter sawn neck. However, if your concerned about neck stability like traveling between humid and dry areas, or live in a dry climate and having frets pop up on the neck or having to redress and file down sharp frets on the neck from seasonal changes occasionally then you might add those issues with the desire to have a sharper attack and decide to spring extra for a quarter sawn neck. It's one of those things that with other minor changes like a nitrous finish and bent steel saddles on your bridge that add up to better tone on the whole. So to put this in perspective. ........bent steel saddles on the bridge 15 percent difference in tone - nitrous finish 20%-quarter sawn neck 20%. There are other things as well such as improved electronic parts which don't significantly change the tone but all things minor changes added up will amount to a significant change in tone when your done. If I wanted to significantly alter tone the fastest and cheapest way I would start with the pickups before tinkering with everything else. Some of you may not like the tone of bent steel saddles or maybe not the sharper attack of a quartersawn neck becouse good tone is subjective and of personal taist. If your tone is heavily distorted most all the time I'm not sure you will even hear much difference if you made all these subtle changes anyway. In that case you may only hear a little sharper and more pronounced gain on your chords and notes and that's somthing the average drunk dope in the audience probably wouldn't notice much anyway.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
Absolutely! Roasting is awesomeness! lol
Personally, a Roasted neck is the best feeling neck I've ever played (second would be a solid Rosewood that I played recently.) I definitely think Roasted and Quartersawn are exceptional options to strengthen a neck–gluing a fret board down strengthens it as well.
To me, how a guitar feels (comfortable to hold, fits the hands just right) is just under the actual guitar tone. I've played guitars that had great tone but the neck was uncomfortable to me and I ended up selling because I couldn't "play it" (hopefully that makes sense.)
I can't quantify X percentage of Y part adds/takes away from the tone; however, I think we all have to find out what works for us and I don't think there are alot of wrong answers.
Absolutely! Roasting is awesomeness! lol
Personally, a Roasted neck is the best feeling neck I've ever played (second would be a solid Rosewood that I played recently.) I definitely think Roasted and Quartersawn are exceptional options to strengthen a neck–gluing a fret board down strengthens it as well.
To me, how a guitar feels (comfortable to hold, fits the hands just right) is just under the actual guitar tone. I've played guitars that had great tone but the neck was uncomfortable to me and I ended up selling because I couldn't "play it" (hopefully that makes sense.)
I can't quantify X percentage of Y part adds/takes away from the tone; however, I think we all have to find out what works for us and I don't think there are alot of wrong answers.
Re: Flatsawn vs Quartersawn.
so after owning an Eric Johnson strat now for a few years I can tell you that a quartersawn neck gives a more snappy and pronounced attack. It also adds sustain and I have never as of yet (crossing my fingers) had to do a fret job for sharp ends popping off the fret board nor a neck adjustment for string tension of 10 guage. I also noticed that the natural and tapped harmonics are more pronounced.
if you roast a quartersawn neck you will in most every case get even more sustain and slightly more dynamic tone added to the tone of the quartersawn neck. It is also usually very comfortable to play and even more stability is usually added to the neck.
If your tone is a soft, and very round type note or chord tone you may not like a quartersawn neck as its tone is more pronounced, dynamic, and snappier. However, this can be easily handled by just adjusting your pickup magnet heights per string or swapping out pickups like using an A3 instead of an A5 which might be a little too ice picky on the upper notes.
I personally love the sound and feel of roasted quartersawn necks. I played a custom Ernie Ball and found it felt, played, and sounded fantastic. I have also played a few custom shop Fenders with this same option and found them to be equally outstanding. They dont sound alike becouse of these options but each one sounded very clear, spanky, and dynamic with the woods and electronics they were constructed out of. The advantage here is that people usually spend all kinds of money on extra pedals to try to get their standard guitars to sound this way. It would be much easier then to minimalize your effects on your tone meaning simplifying your sound with just a good amp and maybe a few pedals only. Loud cleans would benefit the most but harmonics, sustain, and chirps and squeels on distortion tones would benefit as well. I think its definitely worth it if you have the money and you play a lot. you will enjoy the improvement in tone. I would definitely add a nitro paint job and things like improved caps and better block, saddles, and springs to add to your tone. remember to do them 1 step at a time to make sure each improvement sounds the way you expect it too. good tone is subjective and each improvement will add something new to the over all tone of the guitar.
so after owning an Eric Johnson strat now for a few years I can tell you that a quartersawn neck gives a more snappy and pronounced attack. It also adds sustain and I have never as of yet (crossing my fingers) had to do a fret job for sharp ends popping off the fret board nor a neck adjustment for string tension of 10 guage. I also noticed that the natural and tapped harmonics are more pronounced.
if you roast a quartersawn neck you will in most every case get even more sustain and slightly more dynamic tone added to the tone of the quartersawn neck. It is also usually very comfortable to play and even more stability is usually added to the neck.
If your tone is a soft, and very round type note or chord tone you may not like a quartersawn neck as its tone is more pronounced, dynamic, and snappier. However, this can be easily handled by just adjusting your pickup magnet heights per string or swapping out pickups like using an A3 instead of an A5 which might be a little too ice picky on the upper notes.
I personally love the sound and feel of roasted quartersawn necks. I played a custom Ernie Ball and found it felt, played, and sounded fantastic. I have also played a few custom shop Fenders with this same option and found them to be equally outstanding. They dont sound alike becouse of these options but each one sounded very clear, spanky, and dynamic with the woods and electronics they were constructed out of. The advantage here is that people usually spend all kinds of money on extra pedals to try to get their standard guitars to sound this way. It would be much easier then to minimalize your effects on your tone meaning simplifying your sound with just a good amp and maybe a few pedals only. Loud cleans would benefit the most but harmonics, sustain, and chirps and squeels on distortion tones would benefit as well. I think its definitely worth it if you have the money and you play a lot. you will enjoy the improvement in tone. I would definitely add a nitro paint job and things like improved caps and better block, saddles, and springs to add to your tone. remember to do them 1 step at a time to make sure each improvement sounds the way you expect it too. good tone is subjective and each improvement will add something new to the over all tone of the guitar.
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