Floyd Rose nut secure

[dpaterson]

While I’m having a bad day and finding things that don’t fit properly:

Do you think it makes a difference to tone or sustain or anything else if a FR nut is mounted tightly on the nut shelf with screws as opposed to it being glued on (bearing in mind that if it was glued on then there is glue between the nut and nut shelf which may or may not have some type of dampening effect if this is indeed a possible issue at all)???

 

[dave74]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Must be screwed. Glue alone isn't enough for crazy whammy pulls, or even dive and release technique which jerks at it.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Must be screwed. Glue alone isn't enough for crazy whammy pulls, or even dive and release technique which jerks at it.

But would it affect tone or sustain???

Here's the problem (speaking of things that are NON standard like pickup screws):

I stripped the nut on my black Jackson some time ago. I then tried myself to replace the nut with a Floyd original nut (not really knowing what I was doing at the time to be honest). The Floyd nuts have a code "BR3" (for Gibson) but the Jackson nut is a "WR3" (Jackson). Specs. (measurements) ironically are identical (at least I knew to check that at the time). Now, and with a hell of a lot of "experience" later, I have found these nuts to be different from each other ALMOST imperceptibly but they are indeed different. For one thing: the base of the Jackson nut is ever so slightly concave. For another: it's ever so slightly lower than the Floyd nut. Biggest problem of all is that the actual screw holes are offset by a fraction (probably not even 0.5mm) between the two nuts. So long story short: I had to take the thing to a Luthier back then. He filled the holes (that I bunged up) and actually fitted the Floyd nut. But now I want to put a Jackson nut back. Problem is: the holes were filled and are now 100% correct for the Floyd nut and not for the Jackson nut. And I don't know just how many more times this guitar could handle the filling of these holes and have new holes put in again. I guess all I'm saying is that I want to test another Jackson nut and if that's better then I'll screw it in. So the glue would just be to test I suppose. But was just wondering if it makes any difference to tone or sustain if the base of the nut is not totally "snug" and tight with the neck (nut shelf).

Which brings me to one other point:

Any insights into actually drilling right through the neck/headstock/nut shelf and using those rear mounting nut screws??? I've tried to find some type of definitive answer but no cigar. Basically from the little I've been able to find: that's a very weak spot on the neck to begin with. And in addition: one would not only have to drill right through but also countersink the holes on the bottom for the screw heads and lock nut washers (simply because the neck at that point, at the back, is not flat but slightly rounded).

As I've noted on another thread: this is THE LAST time I'm mucking with this guitar (when I install the Invader) so I kinda wanna get it right now once and for all.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

But would it affect tone or sustain???

Here's the problem (speaking of things that are NON standard like pickup screws):

I stripped the nut on my black Jackson some time ago. I then tried myself to replace the nut with a Floyd original nut (not really knowing what I was doing at the time to be honest). The Floyd nuts have a code "BR3" (for Gibson) but the Jackson nut is a "WR3" (Jackson). Specs. (measurements) ironically are identical (at least I knew to check that at the time). Now, and with a hell of a lot of "experience" later, I have found these nuts to be different from each other ALMOST imperceptibly but they are indeed different. For one thing: the base of the Jackson nut is ever so slightly concave. For another: it's ever so slightly lower than the Floyd nut. Biggest problem of all is that the actual screw holes are offset by a fraction (probably not even 0.5mm) between the two nuts. So long story short: I had to take the thing to a Luthier back then. He filled the holes (that I bunged up) and actually fitted the Floyd nut. But now I want to put a Jackson nut back. Problem is: the holes were filled and are now 100% correct for the Floyd nut and not for the Jackson nut. And I don't know just how many more times this guitar could handle the filling of these holes and have new holes put in again. I guess all I'm saying is that I want to test another Jackson nut and if that's better then I'll screw it in. So the glue would just be to test I suppose. But was just wondering if it makes any difference to tone or sustain if the base of the nut is not totally "snug" and tight with the neck (nut shelf).

Which brings me to one other point:

Any insights into actually drilling right through the neck/headstock/nut shelf and using those rear mounting nut screws??? I've tried to find some type of definitive answer but no cigar. Basically from the little I've been able to find: that's a very weak spot on the neck to begin with. And in addition: one would not only have to drill right through but also countersink the holes on the bottom for the screw heads and lock nut washers (simply because the neck at that point, at the back, is not flat but slightly rounded).

As I've noted on another thread: this is THE LAST time I'm mucking with this guitar (when I install the Invader) so I kinda wanna get it right now once and for all.

Unless it's sliding slightly, it probably has little effect on tone -it's all about flat contact for transmission between the nut and neck wood shelf.

Some luthier only put the absolute least amount of glue possible to prevent shifting.

Although, with all the pelvis thrusting 80s whammy pulls you dig, I imagine that style could shift it easier than other styles.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

A good whammy technique does indeed begin at the hips anyone will concur.

As far as whether the Floyd nut is better. Yes. Its better material so Id leave well enough alone.
Most all of my guitars have a rear mount nut, but then again most are also a 3pc neck with a volute which adds strength to an otherwise very weak area of the neck.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

But would it affect tone or sustain???

Here's the problem (speaking of things that are NON standard like pickup screws):

I stripped the nut on my black Jackson some time ago. I then tried myself to replace the nut with a Floyd original nut (not really knowing what I was doing at the time to be honest). The Floyd nuts have a code "BR3" (for Gibson) but the Jackson nut is a "WR3" (Jackson). Specs. (measurements) ironically are identical (at least I knew to check that at the time). Now, and with a hell of a lot of "experience" later, I have found these nuts to be different from each other ALMOST imperceptibly but they are indeed different. For one thing: the base of the Jackson nut is ever so slightly concave. For another: it's ever so slightly lower than the Floyd nut. Biggest problem of all is that the actual screw holes are offset by a fraction (probably not even 0.5mm) between the two nuts. So long story short: I had to take the thing to a Luthier back then. He filled the holes (that I bunged up) and actually fitted the Floyd nut. But now I want to put a Jackson nut back. Problem is: the holes were filled and are now 100% correct for the Floyd nut and not for the Jackson nut. And I don't know just how many more times this guitar could handle the filling of these holes and have new holes put in again. I guess all I'm saying is that I want to test another Jackson nut and if that's better then I'll screw it in. So the glue would just be to test I suppose. But was just wondering if it makes any difference to tone or sustain if the base of the nut is not totally "snug" and tight with the neck (nut shelf).

Which brings me to one other point:

Any insights into actually drilling right through the neck/headstock/nut shelf and using those rear mounting nut screws??? I've tried to find some type of definitive answer but no cigar. Basically from the little I've been able to find: that's a very weak spot on the neck to begin with. And in addition: one would not only have to drill right through but also countersink the holes on the bottom for the screw heads and lock nut washers (simply because the neck at that point, at the back, is not flat but slightly rounded).

As I've noted on another thread: this is THE LAST time I'm mucking with this guitar (when I install the Invader) so I kinda wanna get it right now once and for all.

Hmmm smth tells me that there is something you dont find exactly right about your new nut. I was hanuted with sitar sounding floyd nut for a long time. Till I fitted a Gotoh. So what's the reason you wanna change it? In any case nothing is like the original. About glue hear what the others say, no glue is gonna hold it in place.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Yip. You are quite correct. I’ve been calling it “shrill”. I do believe there is a problem with one of the pickup springs too but I will solve that tomorrow. But this guitar never really sounded the same after the nut was replaced and that “Sitar” type effect to an extent sounds about right.

To be fair: I had better get my facts straight i.e. these were FR “Special Series” nuts that I ordered as replacements at the time and not ORIGINAL series. Again and nearly two years later with a bit of “experience” under my belt: B-I-G difference between the two. The “Special Series” being very “rough and ready” compared to the Original Series. And the stock Jackson stuff seems to be a bit softer alloy too and I am pretty sure this too would affect tone (just gotta be gentle with the Jackson stuff is all).

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

A good whammy technique does indeed begin at the hips anyone will concur.

As far as whether the Floyd nut is better. Yes. Its better material so Id leave well enough alone.
Most all of my guitars have a rear mount nut, but then again most are also a 3pc neck with a volute which adds strength to an otherwise very weak area of the neck.

Yes but you have KRAMERS!!! LOL!!!

I dunno so much about stock stuff being sub par than original though. In the last few weeks I have started forming the opinion that even with budget guitars each component has been tested and sort of compatibility checked for the particular model or range and any changes to this original configuration may not necessarily be an improvement overall. Dunno if this is indeed true but seems to be the case so far as I am concerned. Put another way: there is not a single mod. to this guitar (including something as arbitrary as changing string gauge) (and putting in a brand name pickup like the DM SD) that has made it better. As you probably know: I’ve already put back the Jackson FR (which in itself is better quality than the FR “Special” nonsense). And with hindsight: this guitar was just great as it came (actually was my “baby” even after the Blaze arrived but until I mucked up the nut) (and it’s been pretty much downhill from there for this guitar). These the main reasons I will not be messing with my other Jackson. But who knows. Maybe I will be in for a nice surprise when I put the Invader into this one tomorrow. Guess I will be finding out soon enough. Putting 9’s on again tomorrow too.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Just leave the FR nut there. Why would you need to switch and risk damage to the neck?

Definitely don't try to just glue FR nut!

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

My point was that if you modded your neck for a rear mount nut it will weaken it and def alter its tone.
I had 87 and 88 usa bcrichs which also had a rear mount nut, 87 ibanez RG550 <all scarf jointed (weaker) 87 esp m1 (3pc neck) etc... Personally i prefer rear mounted but they require extra care on my part on account of that weak(er) area.

If youve ever saw a neck with a rear mount nut with the nut removed, its easy to see how little wood is left on either side of the truss rod..

Didnt realize you werent talking about an Original Floyd nut... yea those Floyd Specials and FRT-xxxx series and the oem Jackson nuts (among other oem brands) are not as good of material... good thing about the newer original floyd nuts is that they’re able to be mounted on top or bottom, so save yourself the hassle and leave it topmounted if you do swap it out.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

This should give you maximum sturdiness and sustain:

 

[dave74]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

This should give you maximum sturdiness and sustain:

"dries in 1.5 hrs,,,,,,,,,,holds Vai's nuts for 1.5 measures"

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Hello.

Well aside from anything else: the currently fitted nut is not exactly quite 100% straight or flush with the fretboard. Matter of fact: I'm shortly going to change a pickup in this guitar so I will take pics. and you can see what I mean. First prize for me really is exactly how to fill the holes PROPERLY. Funny thing though: the guitar intones "perfectly" (yeh, yeh, I know), action is fine, and it's not out of tune at the nut at all. Other thing is: the lower D open string buzzes on the first fret and ONLY the lower D string and this can only be because of the nut (as far as I know the saddle heights are correct because all of the string heights have been VERY carefully measured with a gauge). None of this a train smash though. Going to put 9's back onto this guitar too now (doesn't seem to take kindly to 10's either) (basically this guitar is a bit of a prima donna) (I've always said is has a personality and a life of its own) (pity it couldn't just play the Vivian Campbell solos on its own too) (anybody ever listen to something called "Sparky's Magic Piano"??? LOL!!!).

P.S.

I actually saw that very same stuff in a hardware store a few days ago and wondered about it. No jokes.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Maybe your nut pocket has a radius but the FR special is completely flat? That would also explain the open D buzz.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Dale, with all due respect if your nut is not sitting flush with the fretboard there's no way it is intonating properly. It might be intonated to some degree with open strings but as you go up the neck the notes will be more apparently out.

The open D buzz could be an uneven fret, whether it be actual fret wear, or an unseated fret. If the radius doesn't match the bridge Id tend to think all the strings would be out not just that one.
Could be a worn string or a crushed string from the locking nut and if you loosened it to retune it could be sitting on the edge of that flat spot making the string effectively lower at that point.
Could be a twisted neck to some degree as well as an uneven fret working together.

You do need a new guitar tech if that nut isn't flush with the fretboard though I will say that much.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

If the radius doesn't match the bridge Id tend to think all the strings would be out not just that one.

A larger nut radius than the frets' radius would result in exactly that : lower string height at 1st fret for middle strings (D, G) and higher string height at the outer strings.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Yea that is true bro... its too early for this already.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Like I said before: Epoxy the hell out of those uneven frets. Guaranteed, no buzz, 2 second increase in sustain. Seven-string Ibanez Universe approved.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Hello all.

Thanks, as always, for the input and the advice.

The guitar's frets and neck are just fine (have checked i.e. done all the usual checks with the relevant "scientific" tools from StewMac as well as the usual "eyeballing" stuff).

I think it's this flipping "Special Series" nut to be honest. If I compare the Jackson nut to the FR nut I can actually see the difference in the individual heights/nut slots (don't even have to measure to check). Point is: back then (when I started on this modding. and upgrading lark) I just assumed that if the specs. were the same e.g. nut width then everything would just be a straight swap/mod./upgrade. Not so. At least not in my experience thus far. I suppose with the necessary experience: the right way would be to buy ORIGINAL FR (NEVER will I buy this "Special" nonsense again) and then measure string height at the nut and cut the slots with those fancy files from StewMac. But this is not something I'd attempt at this stage of my career. Then again: if you'd asked me about this stuff two years ago I'd have looked at you with a very blank look on my face!!! LOL!!!

But it does go somewhat toward what I was saying earlier in the thread: I don't think that Jackson, even with their budget ranges, just chose a bunch of random components and slapped them together and hoped for the best. I'm not saying they did years of research and had several board meetings about this. But I think there was a fair amount of thought that went into everything and each component has been honed to work together. I suppose the expensive Jacksons that come with Original FR hardware and SD pickups will not suffer from these anomalies. Not sure really. All I do know is that with the budget ranges: nothing is a simple "straight swap" i.e. the stuff may APPEAR to fit just fine but other issues may result.

I'll see what I do. Gonna put the Invader in NOW (FINALLY!!!) and will take pics. of this nut business. If all is great: maybe I'll just get a FR ORIGINAL and go to the trouble of fitting it properly and precisely. Otherwise: ALL the Jackson stuff (including pickups) going back into this guitar i.e. before all this it sounded just perfect (the fact that my personal "tone needs" have changed over the months is not the guitar's fault!!! LOL!!!).

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose nut secure

Wait, how are you gonna cut the slots on a steel nut?
So you own the new Jackson replacement (and identical to the original) nut, right? If not you could helicoil the stripped threads of the original if you still have it.