Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

saqib09

New member
Ok, so, Fishman HB and SC are emerging as the future of pickups. How do they actually stack up against the stacked SD pickups? Has anyone tested?

The way I see it, SD has one thing on it's side, the general rigidity of guitar players and the reluctance to try something new.

Other than that (and aggressive marketing like they do) SD will have to come up with completely noiseless pickups with multiple voicing. The prail was a step in the right direction. I don't know how quiet those are though.

So, what everyone else think?
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

For a 4 wire conductor humbucker you can change series/parallel/split, out-of phase, does that count?
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Yes. The challenge is to achieve noiseless output. But not just that, be consistent. That's my point.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Since the Fluence design has no windings, it is totally unique. SD would have to come up with a completely new design to go there. The Fluence pickups are voiced to have traditional sounds, but they are not limited to those sounds if the designer so chooses. They can really go in totally new directions that wire based pickups can't. Will guitar players want to go there? That is really the question. A guitar loaded with Fluence pickups and a Triple Play system can pretty much do everything that can be done and beyond, as people start stretching the technology. For the vast majority of players, they will probably stick with traditional tech for now. I, however, like messing with newer stuff.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

I would put Lace up there too with innovative design.

Problem is the traditionalists and the OEM channel. If Lace could convince more of the manufacturers to use their pickups, they'd see more of the market. I think a mid-level Schecter with a Drop N Gain or Deathbucker set would sound better than an EMG equipped one.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

The actual design is quite well patent protected. So the bottom line is, they can't. It would have to be something of an alternative, like short little wound coils or something.

But let's be real, they don't have to have an "answer" to Fluence. They can just continue to be who they are and we can all coexist together in the marketplace. Fluence isn't for everybody, neither were P-Rails. But you're right, this is the first time we can get different sounds from the same pickup that are not related to one another at all. Most players will prefer the two voices to be compatible with one another, so a lot of them will be. However, the new Devin Townsend pickups for example have an extremely different Voice 1 and Voice 2. Two voices that are simply impossible to obtain from the same traditionally made pickup (whether active or passive)

But I mean what I say, that legacy passive pickup companies like Duncan and Dimarzio, new mainstays like Bare Knuckles, Lollar, non-traditional companies like Lace or Q-Tuner...they all have their niche, and will always have a place in the market. So even though they can't do what we're doing, there's no reason to believe that people will quit buying those legacy products. People still buy Shure SM57's and 58's by the truckload.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Here is a thought...

When I saw this thread I wasn't signed into the forum and when I did log in the banner went away but when I saw this thread there was a banner at the top of the page that read "Have an idea for a new pickup or pedal?"......"Share them at the Seymour Duncan Research Lab."

So I think the answer to your question is, The Seymour Duncan Company isn't going to do anything, they're going to wait on you guys to have a genius idea for them....
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

So whats so wonderful about the fluency design? New=\= good, and all I can discern from the thread is it does more things than a standard design, but I can't work out what they are
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Apparently (and I haven't looked them up either) from what's been said here, they don't use wound coils. I'm guessing, since it's Fishman, that it's something piezo-based? Anyway...


Frank hit it: SD doesn't have a challenge to rise to concerning these. Period. SD has a market share that isn't going away. Despite all the improvements in pickup design over the decades that SD has done, you still have people buying noisy Fender singles under the delusion that 60 Hz hum is "part of the vintage tone", so I don't see Fishman putting anyone out of business, or even threatening anyone's sales.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Seymour Duncan's business strategy is based on providing a high quality product to their customers. Customers who want a variation of classic designs. Customers who want pickups that do what exactly what you need them to do. Not pickups that fulfill every niche of the market in one box. Not pickups made from gold, aluminium and myrrh.

How will Seymour Duncan meet the challenge from Fishman? By not.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Here is a thought...

When I saw this thread I wasn't signed into the forum and when I did log in the banner went away but when I saw this thread there was a banner at the top of the page that read "Have an idea for a new pickup or pedal?"......"Share them at the Seymour Duncan Research Lab."

So I think the answer to your question is, The Seymour Duncan Company isn't going to do anything, they're going to wait on you guys to have a genius idea for them....

Simple solution there: if you think it's such a hot idea, make it happen. If you're not rich in a year, it's not that great of an idea.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

So whats so wonderful about the fluence design? New=\= good...but I can't work out what they are

Apparently (and I haven't looked them up either) from what's been said here, they don't use wound coils...piezo-based?

Full disclosure: I've been part of the Fluence R&D team since leaving Duncan. I don't want to take for granted that you all know that. But I'm also a veteran forum member, since long before I went to work for Seymour Duncan. When this subject comes up I want to help out, answer questions, clear up any misconceptions, but also be respectful of our host. I don't engage here as a pitch man for Fluence.

Fluence is different because its made up of (usually) 48 layers of thin, individual layered coils. (no, not anything with a piezo) You can't wind a coil like that, wire wound coils go up and down repeatedly. So the Fluence core does things that a regular coil can't. It has more frequency content, the content is more dense (less combing) and less distributed capacitance. To give you an idea of the magnitude, most wire wound coils have resonant peaks between 3kHz and 10kHz. Fluence cores are up at 40kHz-80kHz, beyond human hearing. That means all the frequencies are there to be harvested. (or not)

When creating the pickups, we can subtract whatever we don't want. But you can't take a PAF, for example, and ADD things that aren't there. To give you an idea of the magnitude on distributed capacitance, a regular factory coil has distributed capacitance. A scatterwound version of that same turn count has LESS distributed capacitance, and is part of why some people prefer hand scatterwinds. Fluence cores have even less distributed capacitance than a scatterwound coil, by a factor of 10.

The short version is that working with Fluence is like some Superman, next level stuff. For a pickup designer like me...I'm a kid in a candy store. Happiest, best R&D experience I've ever had. We can make sounds you can't make with wire wound pickups, and I can pack more than one sound into each pickup. We can also have sounds that DO sound like holy grail vintage pickups, but be 100% consistent, and contain some elements that are "better" like the speed, transient response, etc. Ok I'll stop now. :)
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

The way I see it, SD has one thing on it's side, the general rigidity of guitar players and the reluctance to try something new.

Well, that's your point of view. Mine is if it makes the sound that's in my head, it stays.

Call it rigidity or stubborn, hard-headed conservatism all you want. I call it conscious choice. I applaud anyone thinking outside the box but on the other hand throwing away your old tools, together with years of learning their quirks every time a novelty appears on the market, I find thin skinned, naive, short sighted, mentally unstable, lacking focus.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad seeing the Fluence series finally gain traction. Their creators deserve success. The consumers having more choice cannot be a bad thing, unless they are inexperienced and easily overwhelmed. But IMHO the real challenge here is designing a pickup to meet the needs and expectations of a guitar player, matching it to the playing style and fitting the tones within the context of sonic landscape. Now, that is an old game the old dogs at Seymour's and Larry's are very good at.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Frank: Interesting, indeed. I'm not a pickup winder myself, so I'm not all that familiar with building/winding techniques, but I do understand the basic concepts of a wire coil wrapped around a bobbin and how that converts string vibration to impulses and yadda yadda, to some degree at least, so while most of your post goes over my head, it does make sense, if that makes sense :lol:

The Mad Scientist in me is definitely intrigued by the concept. While it's doubtful I'd end up owning 40 of them (2 hums in 20 guitars), even if I did, I doubt SD would notice my absence. Especially considering I've only ever bought 4 pickups new in my life - 2 in 1988, and 2 in 2008. I'm assuming the vast majority of forum participants buy far more from the used market than they do new, so the question of "what's SD gonna do in response to this new thang?" seems like a much smaller issue from a business standpoint. In truth, I'm sure the used market hurts businesses far more than direct competition.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

From my standpoint, there are a few business issues with pushing a radically new design:
  • If the sound is radically different, people have a hard time accepting it
  • If the sound isn't radically different, it's hard to differentiate the new tech from old (and presumably cheaper) stuff
  • Guitarist are a pretty retro group. The most popular (by far) guitar designs are 55-65 years old. Amp designs dating back a half century are still cloned. "Modern" amp designs are mostly adding more tubes to the designs of years ago.

With all the promise of digital amplification in creating new tones and textures, a lot of emphasis is put on aping amps from decades past. With the bar for "modern" so low and the market so unaccepting of real innovation, what's a creative company to do?

All that is kind of summed up with a statement I saw today on another board: If the fuzz was invented today, people would complain about the way it sounded.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

I think you are right. And the only way other companies, including SD, can compete is to come up with the same/similar tech, as you pointed out. I wonder if they are actually thinking along this line.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Full disclosure: I've been part of the Fluence R&D team since leaving Duncan. I don't want to take for granted that you all know that. But I'm also a veteran forum member, since long before I went to work for Seymour Duncan. When this subject comes up I want to help out, answer questions, clear up any misconceptions, but also be respectful of our host. I don't engage here as a pitch man for Fluence.

Fluence is different because its made up of (usually) 48 layers of thin, individual layered coils. (no, not anything with a piezo) You can't wind a coil like that, wire wound coils go up and down repeatedly. So the Fluence core does things that a regular coil can't. It has more frequency content, the content is more dense (less combing) and less distributed capacitance. To give you an idea of the magnitude, most wire wound coils have resonant peaks between 3kHz and 10kHz. Fluence cores are up at 40kHz-80kHz, beyond human hearing. That means all the frequencies are there to be harvested. (or not)

When creating the pickups, we can subtract whatever we don't want. But you can't take a PAF, for example, and ADD things that aren't there. To give you an idea of the magnitude on distributed capacitance, a regular factory coil has distributed capacitance. A scatterwound version of that same turn count has LESS distributed capacitance, and is part of why some people prefer hand scatterwinds. Fluence cores have even less distributed capacitance than a scatterwound coil, by a factor of 10.

The short version is that working with Fluence is like some Superman, next level stuff. For a pickup designer like me...I'm a kid in a candy store. Happiest, best R&D experience I've ever had. We can make sounds you can't make with wire wound pickups, and I can pack more than one sound into each pickup. We can also have sounds that DO sound like holy grail vintage pickups, but be 100% consistent, and contain some elements that are "better" like the speed, transient response, etc. Ok I'll stop now. :)

Wow! Nice to meet you.

I don't understand the engineering but I had correctly understood the potential of the Fishman pickups before reading your posts. Hence my question. But now you confirmed it.

While we're at it do you think the concept of tonewood is slowly dissipating and people starting to realise that type of wood has no affect on solid body electric guitars? It's the construction and mainly the pickups that varies the sound?

oh.. and going by the demos I watch/listen online it seems the pickups can really drive the amp, which is neither a bad thing necessarily nor something new. But it seems the output sometimes causes clipped sound (not always and I understand that you can always make adjustments to avoid that). But I suspect this may be an issue. First I thought that has to do with how the video makers are mic-ing the amp. But I noticed the same issue with multiple posters. Is it that the current amp tech is not fit to fully accommodate the scope and range of the fishman pups? Or the audio are just misleading?
 
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Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

From my standpoint, there are a few business issues with pushing a radically new design:
  • If the sound is radically different, people have a hard time accepting it
  • If the sound isn't radically different, it's hard to differentiate the new tech from old (and presumably cheaper) stuff
  • Guitarist are a pretty retro group. The most popular (by far) guitar designs are 55-65 years old. Amp designs dating back a half century are still cloned. "Modern" amp designs are mostly adding more tubes to the designs of years ago.

With all the promise of digital amplification in creating new tones and textures, a lot of emphasis is put on aping amps from decades past. With the bar for "modern" so low and the market so unaccepting of real innovation, what's a creative company to do?

All that is kind of summed up with a statement I saw today on another board: If the fuzz was invented today, people would complain about the way it sounded.

The age of exploration and discovery regarding amps and guitars reached its peak in the 60s and 70s, and those original designs only need minor changes these days - a little more gain, EQ that cuts or boosts depending on which way you turn the knob, etc. It's a fairly unique industry in that respect. Space exploration is in its infancy, as is underwater exploration. We actually know more about space than we do what lives in the waters of our planet. Or at least, we think we do. In truth, we know jack and squat about space since the furthest we've actually been is the Moon. When we have boots on Mars, then we can say we know something.

Even our own bodies are still more of a mystery than anyone ever imagined, and new relevant discoveries are made every week.

But with amps, it's all been done. There's a solid foundation that was established long ago. The world's greatest music from days long past were made with those original designs, and new music is merely another layer on top of that foundation, so yes, there's going to be what looks like stagnation. As long as people want Hendrix' or EVH's or Page's tones, they will want those old-fashioned guitars, pickups, and amps, because that's the audible portion of it. Technique can be learned, but you cannot make a TripleRec sound like a Dumble. The equipment cannot change its technique, and cannot learn how to sound like something else.

As for modelers, that fills the desire to have all those classic tones - Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, Van Halen, Zeppelin, Sabbath, Metallica, Queen, Montgomery, Benson, Santana, etc - without actually having 20+ different amps and a nuclear power facility to run them. With guitar-based modeling tech, such as the Variax system, you can have one guitar that sounds like a dozen different guitars, from steel and nylon acoustics to hollow, semi-hollow, and solid-body, and many variants of each. Modeling is the new frontier, and makes great strides with each iteration.

However, there's a prevailing mindset of "it's not a real 1959 Les Paul or a real 60s Marshall Plexi, ergo, it cannot sound like them" that spreads through the populace, but doesn't stifle the growth of technology that replicates those tones.

New technology doesn't have to sound like old technology to be acceptable, the people who use new technology have to not limit themselves or what they do with it or the sounds they get from it to those of days gone by. It's time for the artists to move forward to catch up to the tools that are available, else the art cannot advance.
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

Unfortunately for Fishman, it doesn't matter how great the technology or how great the tonal outcome is; as long as it works on batteries, the average guitar player simply won't be that interested.

Don't ask me WHY, it just is so. :(
 
Re: Fluence Fishman - how SD is going to meet the challenge?

So basically you guys dropped a Ford Boss 429 into a '78 Fiesta to do 10.2 quarter-mile times, and then tweaked it to out-lap a Carrera....AND get 85 MPG around town....

Cool!!! :)

Bill
 
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