For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

[Wolfenstein98k]

I'm trying to understand the difference between winding asymmetrically with equal gauge wire, and wiring different gauge wire to the same resistance.

What would be the sonic difference between:
1) A pickup with one 8k coil and one 6k coil with one wire gauge

2) Same pup if it were wound to 7k per coil with different gauge wires

3) Same pup if it were wound with the same number of turns but different gauges?

Which of the above three, if any, would be truly hum-canceling like a symmetrical wind? Particularly, which out of the last two?

And... What would be the obvious sonic differences?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Different wire gauges sound different. Larger gauges have a rounder, looser tone, and thinner gauges have tighter lows and more mids.

But most pickups that use two different wire sizes are usually wound with the same number of turns, not to the same resistance. Pickups are usually never wound to resistance. They are wound by turn count.

Now why is a humbucker's tone effected by having the two coils unbalanced? Humbuckers work because the two coils have opposite electrical polarity, but also opposite magnetic polarity. This puts them out of phase for interference, but in phase for the strings (because of the magnetic polarity). However, because of the way the string vibrates, it's often going down on one coil and away from the other. So there's a small area where upper harmonics are canceled out, while lower frequencies are reinforced. This gives humbuckers their fuller tone. If you move the two coils away from each other, you will get that Strat type 2 or 4 position notched tone.

But this assumes both coils sound the same, or have the same output level. By unbalancing them you allow more highs though because the cancellation is reduced. Also, both coils no longer have the same resonant frequency, so they are smoother sounding without an upper midrange honk. Especially with two different wire gauges.


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[Davii]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

I'm trying to understand the difference between winding asymmetrically with equal gauge wire, and wiring different gauge wire to the same resistance.

What would be the sonic difference between:
1) A pickup with one 8k coil and one 6k coil with one wire gauge

2) Same pup if it were wound to 7k per coil with different gauge wires

3) Same pup if it were wound with the same number of turns but different gauges?

Which of the above three, if any, would be truly hum-canceling like a symmetrical wind? Particularly, which out of the last two?

And... What would be the obvious sonic differences?

I've only been dabbling with winding my own stuff in recent months, so this is purely guess work on what I've noticed doing that, and there's plenty of folk here that can give a far more definitive reply:

1) First coil would have less treble, and higher inductance compared to the second.

2) The coil with the larger wire would have higher inductance, the second would have less turns of wire.

3) As coil config in Q.1

Bass effected by tension involved.

You could roughly calculate the DCR depending on the Ohms/m figure, but the length of each turn gradually increases as the bobbin fills with wire.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

3) Same pup if it were wound with the same number of turns but different gauges?

Which of the above three, if any, would be truly hum-canceling like a symmetrical wind? Particularly, which out of the last two?

And... What would be the obvious sonic differences?

You require the same number of turns to make it hum cancelling.
There is a Dimarzio pickup with the bridge coil wound to 5.8k with 43AWG wire, and the inner coil with 4.5k of 42AWG wire. It seems to be perfectly hum cancelling.
I have read comments from another manufacturer that mismatched coil creates a pickup with boosted mids. I guess its related to the way the two coils resonate in series connection.

There are other pickups that have exactly the same wire and number of turns. Its possible to create a mismatch by altering the winding tension and pattern of the two coils. It seems that creates boosted high frequencies and harmonics.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Great replies, thanks!
Why doesn't Duncan do more pickups with different gauges for asymmetry then? It sounds like a no-brainer

 

[AlexR]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Dimarzio holds a dual resonance patent.

And if you have pickups that have hum as part of the 'design criteria' it tends not to be a great thing for modern tones and higher gain.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

However the Patent would only last for 20 years, so maybe it has expired by now.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

However the Patent would only last for 20 years, so maybe it has expired by now.

It actually did in late 2014, that's why in 2015 Duncan could put on the market the brainchild of a SDUGF member, Bach2Rock: the '59/Custom Hybrid, which was waiting for the opportunity to come out since 2005.

HTH,

 

[LtKojak]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

You require the same number of turns to make it hum cancelling.
There is a Dimarzio pickup with the bridge coil wound to 5.8k with 43AWG wire, and the inner coil with 4.5k of 42AWG wire. It seems to be perfectly hum cancelling.
I have read comments from another manufacturer that mismatched coil creates a pickup with boosted mids. I guess its related to the way the two coils resonate in series connection.

There are other pickups that have exactly the same wire and number of turns. Its possible to create a mismatch by altering the winding tension and pattern of the two coils. It seems that creates boosted high frequencies and harmonics.

I've made coil-mismatch prototypes up to 25% turns of the same wire gauge with no significant hum increase.

HTH,

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

This has been really interesting. Thanks guys.

Am I right then to understand that the thing that makes asymmetrical pickups so unique, is the same thing that causes them to lose their hum-cancelling? Is it a necessary sacrifice?

Does the SH-16 hum more than the SH-14 or SH-1b which it compiles?

 

[Mincer]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Well, that's the thing: the 59/Custom Hybrid is indeed, unique. But it is still quiet in the 2 guitars I have it in. I don't hear any jump in noise over matched coils, at all...at least in my rig.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Something I do is put different value capacitors in series inbetween the coils so that only the higher frequencies pass through on one of the coils. Depending on the pickup and cap value (I use .1uf a lot) it gives it a sound similar to a hybrid pickup. I use it most often in the neck.

 

[gregory]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

A cap in series affects both coils, not just one. Try putting the cap inline between the pickup and ground if you don't believe me. Pick a small value like 10nF, to make it easy on yourself. It's one of the first things you learn in a course on circuit theory.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Sorry about that above post, I had other things on my mind and was only half paying attention when I wrote it. I put the cap (resistors work too) in series between the two pickups, but ground it like I would a coil split. This allows only the highs of one pickup to pass through to the ground and keeps the bass frequencies. Depending on what value you use it will make it sound anywhere from a single coil to a p90 to a slightly hybrid-like humbucker. I haven't completely gotten it to nail the hybrid tone, but that's impossible without actually changing the windings of one coil. It's what Gibson does for their "Fat Taps".

 

[gregory]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

You mean you're shunting one of the coils, or in other words, you're putting an element in parallel with one of the coils. Series is simply not the correct term to use in that scenario.

Thanks for the clarification. You're right about the effect of a partial tap and it's well worth exploring when chasing tone.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Thank you, I took one class on electrical circuitry and that was a long time ago. But yes, partial splits are nice and tend to be useful for getting unique "signature" tones. One time things came together so well that (combined with out of phase and another cap) made a Les Paul with a pair of 59s sound like position 4 on a Strat.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

Again, thanks for the discussion guys. I love this stuff but I'm very green to it!

I have a good idea of magnets, and why and when you'd use any given one... But winds are new to me. Two questions:

1) is there any list or repository for the different popular pickups and their winds - like, Super Distortion is 43AWG hot wind, 59n is AWG42 cool wind, etc etc?

2) if you took a given pickup everyone's familiar with - say, a JB - and dewound one of the coils by a thousand or two turns, what would you predict would be the tonal changes?

 

[Demanic]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

I'm going to think that most wind formulas are proprietary. And just like any recipie, the winder may tweak individual batches to get a desired outcome.
As to the second, some have made a JB/Custom hybrid.

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[AlexR]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

The wind is where the magic happens. If you see the number of pickups of about the same strength and the same magnet even within Duncan's lineup and look at tonal properties you see a difference. It why modern pickups generally don't quite get the depth of tone of vintage ones.
There are a lot of wind parameters, and once you have managed to get the art of getting the wire on the bobbin then you can experiment with the patterns of how the wire is laid down.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: For the gurus... Trying to understand winding principles

I think its really hard to generalise about winds and tone. It won't be as simple as having a recipe and getting a predictable result.

There are a lot of variables in the way the pickup is wound. Variations in wire thickness and insulation type will change the resonance frequency of the coils. Some of the properties of the iron components will vary between different manufacturers, Eg. some use Hex screws, and sometimes there are extra iron components added to the bobbins to change the reluctance properties. There is also the use of air gap in the magnetic circuits. It seems that subtle variations in the magnetic formulas can make a difference in some cases. All the possible variations means you benefit from the maker's expertise when you get a finished pickup from one of the top pickup winders.