For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

[SJ318]

Hello again,
So, certain woods vibrate more than some. Certain woods vibrate well, but "differently". Certain woods get so dense they no longer resonate hardly at all. I have heard this as hard fact for 45 years. I knew the original owner of Warmoth and he made a granite guitar. I saw it. Never played it. Died a quite death. Guess hard as possible didn't work. It was cut at 11 pounds.
My question. If harder woods are not as resonant as others, why does ebony come advertised as very good at transferring vibrations as a fretboard. If hard is good, why not an all maple body? LP's of course are mainly mahogany in the body and neck.
On the extreme example: Steel is the choice for many saddles, chromed steel, brass, titanium, these are as dense as it gets. So if we suspend reality for a second and forget string wear, why not maple or mahogany or even ebony for saddles. Clapton used nylon saddles for the "Beano" album and I have seen glaring pictures of him with nylon saddles on his 335, "the Fool", etc.
Why not make a thinner guitar for weight reasons using all chromed steel, like the saddles?
I searched all over again, even that great Sitar site I was shown by a very nice guy here, can't remember his name, and they sent me back here, and rest said, "I hear ya, but I don't know".
Anyone up for this, in plain non-P.H.D. language?
Thanks guys, and girls,
SJ

 

[DreX]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

I'm not the wood specialist you asked for, but I have fun guessing:

"If harder woods are not as resonant as others, why does ebony come advertised as very good at transferring vibrations as a fretboard?" Consider the dissipation of vibrations when you have the frets mounted directly to a less-hard wood, versus having the frets mounted to a more-hard wood, which is then mounted to a less-hard wood. Not to say one is better or worse, but I can see how it would make a difference. OTOH, I think the added rigidity of using two pieces of wood for a neck instead of one is much more significant to the overall tone than how well the ebony does or doesn't transfer whatever.

"why not maple or mahogany or even ebony for saddles." Getting back to the dissipation, maybe it's not ideal to have the source of vibration enter the rest of the system at a tiny, soft point. The hard saddles, frets and nuts distributes the vibration over a slightly wider area than the string would be itself. Speaking of soft, I bet the strings would cut into the wood and snag really badly.

"Why not make a thinner guitar for weight reasons using all chromed steel, like the saddles?" If you've ever fitted a metal pick guard to a Strat or a Tele, or played a metal top Zematis, you could get a sense for what direction the tone goes in with steel. It's not unlike the difference between a wood acoustic and a resonator acoustic. Regardless of whether any of these alternatives sound good or bad, the consumer has declared that they're only going to buy Strats, Teles, Les Pauls, and slight variations thereof. Most guitarists ideas of improvement or advancement is better looking relic jobs and vintage correctness at a more affordable price.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

Feel free to make yourself a paper thin guitar with sheet metal body and wooden saddles if that's what floats your boat.

All maple construction is nothing unusual in jazz archtops. Another thing, titanium is pretty damn light at half the weight of brass.

 

[AlexR]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

Wood is variable. Some woods are harder and denser as standard, some more open. In a guitar scenario some dense woods do better than a typically more open wood that just happens to be dense in that particular board. Woods vibrate differently. Some work better with producing an acoustic tone, others do better in keeping string energy inertia and feed it back into the 'sustain' of the instrument. Both the way the guitar sounds acoustically and also the way it then keeps the string ringing are factors in the amplified tone - but it all depends on the particular sum of the whole package of woods/hardware/pickup combo.

Metal materials and things like nylon are on the other hand are manufactured to a certain formula. They have the same density essentially from one bit to another, and the same tonal change. Add more steel to a part and you can accurately predict the tone change. Nylon was used for most if not all 50's Gibsons. Its a PITA to cut, so I'm sure as they started trying to make guitars more economically in the 60's there was a move to something easier to use.

Not sure where you get the 'harder woods aren't as resonant' bit, but IIRC you've come up with a few of these 'myths with no shred of logic behind them'.....The old days must have been a whole hodgepodge of people sprouting as fact something they'd heard from someone supposedly 'in the know'. Woods like maple are hard, as is ebony. I've never heard these being descibed as non resonant EVER.

Jazz boxes often do come with wood saddles, but its much easier to make an ABR with metal as its often much harder, can be easily plated, doesn't rot and can be threaded for adjustable intonation.

 

[SJ318]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

DreX and AlexR,
When I was a kid trying to figure stuff out, there was no where to go, not in Tacoma, Wa.
I got the "Too dense=less vibration transfer" from a sitar master builder in LA. He is the builder to the Indian music stars, again an easy example - Ravi Shankar. He also said tight bridge fits of any musical instrument stye- a wood bridge locked down hard against a wooden top wood choke vibration transfer. He is a master, but that is all I could get out of him. He said "can't talk" and hung up, just last month.
Vinta9e- no need for sarcasm, "If paper thin steel guitars and wooden saddles float my boat" - (I very much dislike conflict, so not looking for a fight) clearly I was looking for an answer based on things I have been told as fact, and I look up to many of you for answers, especially as I have no work area nor am I able to try such things out in my condo, that I am stuck in. (disabled, no car). So, V9- you bring up a good question, do you know if titanium, being light but also not as dense as brass as you say, which would transfer energy better-a brass saddle or a titanium saddle, all things being equal?
DreX and AlexR, I can tell that my mahogany guitars don't resonate or sound as "clear" as my LP stye things, like my mahogany with maple. The LP Jr. Mahogany sounds "soft" to my ears. So you can see where my questions come from.
It boils down to this and why I ask: What I have been told as fact my whole life from people that should know (professionals) does not jibe with what I hear with my own ears and things I read in new mags with smart builders, like Vintage Guitar.
DreX: what does happen to the tone of metal topped guitars like Zemitis and steel Strat pickgaurds, I have never tried either.
Thanks, I am very much a newbee when it comes to this stuff.
SJ

 

[DreX]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

I agree that all the generalization about what wood works best fail. It seems to be like throwing darts; if the wood is too much of this, you overshoot the mark, too much of that and you come up short. A lot of people say the shape of the guitar doesn't matter, but not only must it matter to the way vibration bounces around the body, but I bet a given piece of wood that sounds bad cut one way might sound better/different if it had been cut a different way. Vibrations bend the guitar very fast at a microscopic level, and so it should be easy to imagine how the shape of the guitar effects it's flexibility from any one point to the other, especially in relation to the bridge and the neck heel where the vibration is conducted to the body. Frank Falbo noted that single bridge pickup guitars might sound better because there's that much less wood removed right there where the neck meets the body. People ask why you can't get Tele tone from a Les Paul and vice versa, there's your answer. They think pickups can work miracles, but the pickup is analogous to a microphone, not a voice box. We're living in a dark age when we don't have enough solid information on hand about how wood effects electric guitar tone, we're relying on folk wisdom. Sorry for ranting.

DreX and AlexR, I can tell that my mahogany guitars don't resonate or sound as "clear" as my LP stye things, like my mahogany with maple. The LP Jr. Mahogany sounds "soft" to my ears. So you can see where my questions come from.

I thought folk wisdom said mahogany was a darker wood more often than not. That would match with your experience. My mahogany electrics have thinner bodies like an LP Jr, I'd agree that it's dark also, but that could be as much a result of the thinner body for all I know.

Steel resonators have a somewhat harsh upper mid response which makes them popular for slide guitar, but not much else. With the Zemaitis and the Tele with the pickguard, there's a similar thing happening, but less overt, and more biting in the top end, like that sound you hear when you rub silverware together. It might sound cool for slide guitar though, I haven't thought to try it before.

 

[vinta9e]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

Please don't be offended, Steve.

 

[AlexR]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

I'm not sure about sitars. But guitars need solid and tight connection for anything that is connected to the strings even indirectly. Acoustic bridges are glued on solidly. Electric bridges and tailpieces have solid bushings going deep into the wood.
An inefficient transmission point is a one-way loss of energy and a source of deadening tonally. Energy and its momentum from strings to body and back is one oif the main factors in sustain.

Not sure about your guy - sounds like him spinning anything he can to get you off the phone.....even as far as saying quite the opposite of truth so you don't call him about anything again.

Wood can be generalised certainly from a 'tonal ballpark'. But not only is there massive variation in plank structure, but very few guitars are made only from wood from one individual plank, let alone one species. There are 'all mahogany' LP customs that sound brighter than 'mahogany and maple' LP customs with the same general build.

Also body thickness and overall shape is very important. A Jr made of mahogany and an SG tend to sound quite middy with an open growl that a hog/maple LP (but with a thicker body) can't hope to emulate. Full thickness LP's seem to consistently have a solid lower mid thunk that equally the SG or Jr won't match.

I'm of the school that thinks everything matters...from your tuners/nut/bridge tailpiece to the nature of the headstock veneer.

 

[DreX]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

But guitars need solid and tight connection for anything that is connected to the strings even indirectly. I'm not sure about sitars. But guitars need solid and tight connection for anything that is connected to the strings even indirectly. Acoustic bridges are glued on solidly.

Actually, floating tail pieces / bridges are not glued to the body, the pressure of the strings holds them in place (not to be confused with floating tremolo). Violins and cellos work the same way, and I guess sitars. Who knows if it really sounds better though, maybe they just omit the glue since it's not 100% necessary and/or makes repairs easier.

edit; I suppose a floating bridge could sound better on an acoustic instrument, as the sound board might oscillate more freely if the bridge isn't physically secured to it with glue or screws. Maybe some standing waves are allowed pass under the bridge if it's only held down by the strings, whereas a physical joint would be more liable to absorb those standing waves.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

Hello again,
So, certain woods vibrate more than some. Certain woods vibrate well, but "differently". Certain woods get so dense they no longer resonate hardly at all. I have heard this as hard fact for 45 years. I knew the original owner of Warmoth and he made a granite guitar. I saw it. Never played it. Died a quite death. Guess hard as possible didn't work. It was cut at 11 pounds.
My question. If harder woods are not as resonant as others, why does ebony come advertised as very good at transferring vibrations as a fretboard. If hard is good, why not an all maple body? LP's of course are mainly mahogany in the body and neck.
On the extreme example: Steel is the choice for many saddles, chromed steel, brass, titanium, these are as dense as it gets. So if we suspend reality for a second and forget string wear, why not maple or mahogany or even ebony for saddles. Clapton used nylon saddles for the "Beano" album and I have seen glaring pictures of him with nylon saddles on his 335, "the Fool", etc.
Why not make a thinner guitar for weight reasons using all chromed steel, like the saddles?
I searched all over again, even that great Sitar site I was shown by a very nice guy here, can't remember his name, and they sent me back here, and rest said, "I hear ya, but I don't know".
Anyone up for this, in plain non-P.H.D. language?
Thanks guys, and girls,
SJ

Can't answer all the points, but what I noticed about nylon saddles and some of the things you mention - nylon saddles in my guitars tamed the sustain, mellowed the tone of the guitar, but also evened the string response from string to string. But more importantly - plugging said instrument into a vintage hand-wired tube amp of the era brought back the luster, brightness and apparent sustain (due to the natural compression characteristics of the tubes). So I came to the conclusion that you have to match equipment to other equipment from the period it was designed in to get 'that sound' and 'that sound' we all think of and talk about is a balance of multiple factors across all the gear in the signal chain; and sometimes folks mistakenly ascribe some characteristics to wood or other parts, not realizing that something else in their signal chain was contributing to what they were hearing. YMMV

 

[SJ318]

Re: For wood specialists-question needs an answer please

Vinta9e-
Thanks, appreciate it.
AlexR and DreX-Thanks again for some more wisdom on things I am just guessing on. I think you are right about that "Master Sitar Maker" just trying to get rid of me. I didn't tell you this, as it was slightly embarrassing, The guy was yelling to me from his work station as the counter man held the phone up.
We used to be friends as one sitar player to another. But his raise to chief of ALL Indian instrument repairs he became someone I don't know.
beaubrummels-
That was the best answer on the "nylon saddle question" I have got. It all makes sense. My first real guitar was a 1966 cherry 335, it had nylon saddles and I played it through a maxed out blackface Bassman head, through 2 JBL 120's, man, what a sound. I still have the bassman. Had to swap the 335 for a Les Paul (I HAD to have a Les Paul), and I had no money, in San Francisco with a hippy that didn't even use it much but wanted a "good" guitar in trade.
DreX and AlexR, Vinta9e and beaubrummels, Thanks all you guys for sharing things i don't know. Good Job,
SJ