Formvar wire VS enamel

[Guitar-Sam]

I have a Dimarzio Blue Velvet DP170 and they have formvar wire and beveled alnico5 magnets vintage stagger cept for G string is lowered measures 5.91K .
I really don't care for it all that much kinna dead and wooly sounding compared with my CS69s I had and my old 57/62s and Dimarzio FS-1
What I'm wondering is,the pickups I like seem to be enamel wired AL5 pickups.So is it safe to say that if I don't like this Dimarzio formvar pickup that I wouldn't like other vintage style formvar pups or do they vary THAT much??

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

They all vary quite a bit. I have not used formvar myself but from what I understand from other winders is the main difference is not so much material (formvar vs. PE) itself as the fact that the formvar wire used in Fender style pickups is double-build, meaning two coats of insulation instead of one as with PE. The effect is they're supposed to be a bit brighter but I defer to winders who've actually used formvar.

 

[glassman]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

I’m not a pickup winder but I have 20+ years experience in the magnet wire industry in quality and applications engineering.

There are actually a lot more variables here than meet the eye. Formvar has changed a LOT over the last 4 decades. Poly Vinyl formal Varnish (Formvar) used to be a mixture of several different molecular weight vinyls and phenolic up through the 1970’s. Formvar was very sensitive to moisture so formulas were modified with a polyurethane additive to make the varnish more stable…most Formvar enamels today are this modified version. In the early 1990’s, Monsanto stopped making the Formvar resin and sold their formulas and rights to the Chisso company. Though marketed as an identical material, the formulation was different enough that enamel formulas had to be reformulated from scratch. Properties on the new Formvars are slightly different from the previous versions

The varnish thickness specifications overlap (by 50%) between single build and heavy build. And the important feature concerning frequency, the dissipation factor, is identical between them. The dissipation factor characterizes the loss factor of the insulation and is frequency dependent. The dissipation factor is a function of degree of cure of the insulation system. The cure of a Formvar insulated wire changes over time, though to a lesser degree with modern Formvar. It can be manipulated to approximate the effects of time with additional heat, effectively lowering the dissipation factor.

Polyester enamels typically have a lower dissipation factor than Formvar and are more stable

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

They all vary quite a bit. I have not used formvar myself but from what I understand from other winders is the main difference is not so much material (formvar vs. PE) itself as the fact that the formvar wire used in Fender style pickups is double-build, meaning two coats of insulation instead of one as with PE. The effect is they're supposed to be a bit brighter but I defer to winders who've actually used formvar.

That's been my experience with Formvar.

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

I’m not a pickup winder but I have 20+ years experience in the magnet wire industry in quality and applications engineering.

There are actually a lot more variables here than meet the eye. Formvar has changed a LOT over the last 4 decades. Poly Vinyl formal Varnish (Formvar) used to be a mixture of several different molecular weight vinyls and phenolic up through the 1970’s. Formvar was very sensitive to moisture so formulas were modified with a polyurethane additive to make the varnish more stable…most Formvar enamels today are this modified version. In the early 1990’s, Monsanto stopped making the Formvar resin and sold their formulas and rights to the Chisso company. Though marketed as an identical material, the formulation was different enough that enamel formulas had to be reformulated from scratch. Properties on the new Formvars are slightly different from the previous versions

The varnish thickness specifications overlap (by 50%) between single build and heavy build. And the important feature concerning frequency, the dissipation factor, is identical between them. The dissipation factor characterizes the loss factor of the insulation and is frequency dependent. The dissipation factor is a function of degree of cure of the insulation system. The cure of a Formvar insulated wire changes over time, though to a lesser degree with modern Formvar. It can be manipulated to approximate the effects of time with additional heat, effectively lowering the dissipation factor.

Polyester enamels typically have a lower dissipation factor than Formvar and are more stable

Excellent info.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

the formvar wire used in Fender style pickups is double-build, meaning two coats of insulation instead of one as with PE.

from what ive seen and heard, fender used heavy formvar only early on then used single formvar. i have heavy and single formvar wires from mws. with the heavy you can barely get 6k worth on a bobbin and with a decent scatter you wont get that much. with single you can get closer to 8k worth on there.

formvar does sound a little brighter than pe which seems to have a stronger fundamental from what i can tell. its hard to make two pups exactly the same when you do it all by hand. ie... "is all that difference im hearing the wire or did i have a little more tension on this one?"

both are cool for different things.

a heavy formvar neck pup with a heavy scatter is beautiful, even if you can only get 7600 turns on before its full

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

sorry to bring this one back to life but today's formvar is some good sounding stuff if you work out the thickness of bare wire + 1 coat of insulation + another coat of insulation it does work out to about .0030"
http://www.mwswire.com/awgsearch2.asp
it has a hollow sound nice & fat & smooth sound as well
i have wound to about 7.2k but its hard to get any more than that with any good tension without bobbins flaring

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

I now have experience with double-build formvar. Made a couple of Strat pu's with it and it's just a hair darker and warmer but the best way to describe it is "chewy", in a good way. I fixed a vintage Strat pu for a guy and I noticed it had formvar and I loved the sound of it in the neck, very chewy as I said. So I made one of my own with some formvar I hadn't tried yet and the sound was really really close, the basic quality was there in spades.

In other words, it is NOT brighter than PE and poly as I had suspected. Yet another lesson on the need to filter what you read and hear.

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

Maybe its a problem of perception: The thicker wire makes a bigger coil with the same length of wire. A bigger coil has a higher resonance freq and seems to be brighter.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

THis thread needs another go round ! What do you guys think about Fenders Formavar winds- in particular, the Custom Shop '54's.
I am trying to nail early 50's Ash Strat tone, and right now am about to use some old 80's Non- Formvar ( did Duncan ever use Forvar?) underwound Duncans, but wondering how much is the underwind, and how much is the Formvar in the tone calculation?

 

[copperheadroads]

Re: Formvar wire VS enamel

Heavy Formvar has a hollow more open tone than spn poly wire or Plain Enamel & don't forget it has a brighter & fatter tone .the main reason is it 2 coats of insulation
You can get heavy build poly & it sounds the same as any Heavy formvar i have tried
formvar don't have that INGREDIENT in it's insulation that reduces the treble like Plain enamel does