Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

[ItsaBass]

Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I could be wrong now (I HIGHLY doubt it though) but the design proposed is for the NECK, NOT the bridge, the bridge being either calibrated for the neck or a hotter version that still pairs up with it...

Specifically, the initial plan was to build a neck that pairs up with the current C/59 hybrid that is a bridge pickup and then branched on to the possibility of having a new bridge of its' own. People could get just the neck to pair with a C/59 bridge that they already have or they could get both as a dedicated set.

It was the idea. But what I suggested is nowhere near being at odds with it. A neck pickup that is made for a hot PAF to cool modern sounding set could easily be 7.6K with A2, like the pickup I suggested. Look at the PGn, '59n, A2P, JMn, all of which are often paired with anything from pure vintage all the way up to things like the JB, Dimebucker, or Custom. The 7.6K pickup I suggested would have more wire on it than some of those neck pickups. It would have a total number of winds about like a A2P neck or Jazz neck. As people are fond if pointing out, those are not vintage voiced pickups, and SD even packages the JMn with the JB, and the '59n with the Dimebucker.Point being, what I suggested easily meets the criteria.

It seems like you're flatly rejecting it just because of the word "Seth," without considering the things I just mentioned: the specs of the pickup I suggested easily line up with the goal at hand here. At this point, I wouldn't be suggesting it if it didn't think met the criteria. I'm not trying to railroad some non-related design through at the last minute. I really think it would be a great match to the 59/C, as well as being able to stand on its own for more vintage minded people.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I don't know of you had a chance, but I did a brief review of your design (59 coil from a neck pickup mated to a Custom coil and a ceramic magnet) and what you are wanting is exactly what that version of the hybrid does! To a T, actually. There is actually quite a bit of that single coil "snap" in there (especially clean....but it even presents when distorted). It never really smoothes out like what happens when you gain up most bright humbuckers which I thought was interesting.

In comparison, it is more single-coiley and much brighter than the regular hybrid. Less chunk and less midrange. I am gonna try with other magnets when I get a chance as it is still in the Les Paul. While I like some aspects of it, it is just too bright for me!

Thank you for doing that. I was on the verge of dropping $230 to do it myself, just to find out.

It sounds like exactly what I had in mind for the tweaked 59/C. It could be the 59/C for those like me, who want a bridge pickup to cut and sting. The regular 59/C could be the version for those who want it to be a bit smoother and fuller.

Before you take it apart...have you tried it in the neck position?

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I read you correctly, again I am no expert but a pickup of about 7.6K is nowhere NEAR being a Hot Vintage or a Moderate Modern, it's a low-output pickup (MAYBE "Moderate Vintage") no matter how you slice it. The FuglyBucker is what I consider Moderate Output and that still is 8.1k with an A2 magnet (the neck, the bridge is 8.5k).

Now I would obviously defer to the CS's opinion on this but no, I would not want the Seth name anywhere near the description we give the CS on the pickup we want EXACTLY because it gives the wrong idea about what we want which is NOT anything as low-output as the Seth Lover pickup that the SD CS is so very well acquainted with and loved.

The pickup we propose, the neck version would be substantially hotter than the BRIDGE version of the Seth Lover set (even more winds than the half-and-half you propose).

Also as a memory refresher, we also did decide that we would not speak about specs PERIOD. We'll say what we want and then the CS will decide on the technical details themselves.

 

[ItsaBass]

Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I read you correctly, again I am no expert but a pickup of about 7.6K is nowhere NEAR being a Hot Vintage or a Moderate Modern, it's a low-output pickup (MAYBE "Moderate Vintage") no matter how you slice it. The FuglyBucker is what I consider Moderate Output and that still is 8.1k with an A2 magnet (the neck, the bridge is 8.5k).

Now I would obviously defer to the CS's opinion on this but no, I would not want the Seth name anywhere near the description we give the CS on the pickup we want EXACTLY because it gives the wrong idea about what we want which is NOT anything as low-output as the Seth Lover pickup that the SD CS is so very well acquainted with and loved.

The pickup we propose, the neck version would be substantially hotter than the BRIDGE version of the Seth Lover set (even more winds than the half-and-half you propose).

Also as a memory refresher, we also did decide that we would not speak about specs PERIOD. We'll say what we want and then the CS will decide on the technical details themselves.

The decision to go with a neck match to the 59/C was different than the vote for cool modern/hot vintage.

The modern/vintage vote was made as a vote to decide voicing, before we even knew we were making a neck pickup or a bridge pickup. It was NOT a vote for a neck pickup that is hotter than a Seth bridge pickup.

The decision to make the pickup a neck match to the '59/C was made based on commonly voiced suggestions, effectively saying that the previous voicing poll wasn't going to be strictly adhered to, if at all. Again, the two don't get combined and compounded to equal a vote for a neck pickup that is hotter than a Seth bridge pickup.

The name "Seth" has nothing to do with my idea. I simply described what coils might be cool to use.

I don't see the thought process behind thinking that the neck pickup is going to be hotter than what would normally be a bridge pickup. That thinking combines two decisions that were never meant to be combined. That the neck match to the '59/C is going to be very hot for a neck pickup was never decided by anyone in any sort of official capacity, nor was it ever voted for. And it makes no sense on the technical level. Looking at what Duncan actually does pair with their bridge pickups, even up to the hot passives like the JB, I don't see how you'd expect them to come up with a neck pickup that is beyond a basic 8k-or-so bridge humbucker.

What exactly is it that you have in mind that will match a '59/C bridge, yet also be hotter than a Seth bridge placed in the neck position? Those seem like contradictory criteria to me. A Seth bridge in the neck position is already going to be significantly hotter than a '59/C in the bridge position...but you think we all decided on something even hotter? It makes no sense, and it doesn't logically follow DarkMatter's path to this point. The usual factory-designed neck matches, even for pickups significantly hotter than the '59/C, are not significantly hotter than PAF style bridge pickups.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I honestly didn't expect I'd need to go through it in such detail but no matter, today was my day off anyway :9:.

Firstly a disclaimer, a quick visit to SD's Tone Comparison Chart reveals that the difference between the neck and bridge versions can range from almost identical readings to as much as DOUBLE from neck to bridge. Here's where I come back and repeat that I will defer to the SD CS on this. Remember, kΩ readings are just an INDICATION of the resulting output.

OK! First of all a couple of numbers because I dislike being misinterpreted (however unintentionally I'm sure).

• The SH-55 BRIDGE is a pickup that uses a single A2 bar magnet and measures at 8.1k. The FuglyBucker NECK uses two A2 bar magnets and also measures at 8.1k. Hence, when I said the FuglyBucker NECK pickup is hotter than the Seth Lover BRIDGE pickup that was what I meant. From what we've gone through thus far I expect this neck pickup to be at similar output levels.
• Furthermore, the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop designed the Fuglybucker set together as, y'know, a set, with the bridge at 8.5k which is STILL at Moderate Output levels. Hence a Moderate Modern pickup is, by the SD CS standards at about 8.1k - 8.5k.
• The SH-16 59/Custom Hybrid Bridge is what I consider a Hot pickup at 11.5k. It would stand to reason that a neck pickup that was meant to be the missing half of a set would also have a comparable output. Taking into account the difference in output between the bridge and neck positions, that output would most likely be in the 8k to 10k region, probably not bellow it. Again, that, according to the above, is in the Moderate Modern output levels.

All of the above indicate that what we've come up with until now isn't contradictory in any way so the question is, can what we propose be taken by the CS and be a successfully realized idea? I certainly think so!

Reversely, could what you propose be a viable candidate for a C/59 bridge? Perhaps, probably with a lot of tweaking but I think so. However, is it contradictory with what we've been talking about up till now? Sorry to say that it is!
I do hope that I didn't appear to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, however I STRONGLY feel that what you suggest is completely at odds with what the general consensus has decided on.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

The last humbucker poll did have an unclear result. Therefore, I don't think we should strictly adhere to it or ignore it. Part of my logic for choosing the hybrid option was that it was neither vintage nor modern and would likely fall into the moderate output range. Like I said before, it's a compromise, but not a compromised design.

Personally, I think we should come up with a basic sound concept for the bridge, one that is not PAF, or a fire breathing beast. The neck is already done on our end, if the Custom Shop decides that a hybrid with 2 coils of 42awg and a mid 7k resistance sounds best, then so be it. PAF's get paired with much hotter bridge pickups all the time.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Agreed 100%.

Now, is there a method to determining the bridge? Maybe a pickup that combines the best of both worlds? And how do we come about deciding them? Honest question.

Like I said the ideal for me is a pickup with the extended range, clarity and definition that mostly all newer SDs seem to share with the character and personality of the older generation.
I was not joking either when I said that, always IMHO, the pickups that best exemplify those traits (from the ones I've tried obviously) were the Alt8 (chosen because the A8 magnet offers the clarity of ceramics with the character of A2 pickups) and the Pearly Gates that can be considered a Hot Vintage (not JB hot mind you), has been pretty darn popular in general and in these proceedings in particular and has a voice that is all its' own.
Obviously the Alt8 is too hot for Moderate Modern but it wasn't necessarily meant to be a part of the new pickup directly, just a point of reference to convey what we are talking about. Plus, you know, the C/59 IS a pretty hot pickup so there is enough space for something hotter than Moderate yet cooler than Hot.

However how should we go about affirming that's what most people think of as well?

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I think the simplest way to quickly get everyone on the same page with the bridge would be to use the 59/Custom as the comparison when describing what you'd like. I doubt we can ask them to develop 2 pickups, so this will have to be ralated somewhat to the neck version, which of course will pair well with the 59/Custom or this design. If you haven't tried the old hybrid maybe reference the 59 or the Custom instead. The Custom shop excels at taking modified descriptions of existing pickups and incorporating your requests. This doesn't mean we have to ask for a 59/Custom wound differently, it's just a way of relating the sound to something familiar.

Possible areas to change:
1. EQ (bass, mids, highs)
2. Tighter/more loose
3. Output
4. Clarity
5. Thickness (density, quality of midrange)

 

[VHTJay]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Thank you for doing that. I was on the verge of dropping $230 to do it myself, just to find out.

It sounds like exactly what I had in mind for the tweaked 59/C. It could be the 59/C for those like me, who want a bridge pickup to cut and sting. The regular 59/C could be the version for those who want it to be a bit smoother and fuller.

Before you take it apart...have you tried it in the neck position?

No, I haven't tried it in the neck position, but that is a really good idea....I bet it would sound really clear there, with alot of attack. Looks I have some more experimenting to do.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

This thread is too quiet. Should I start the Zebro vs hybrid vote?

 

[superpete]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

This thread is too quiet. Should I start the Zebro vs hybrid vote?

my only question would be is a vote for a hybrid a vote for neck pickup only, or a new set (neck and bridge)? For example, personally i'd prefer a zebro bridge over any neck pickup. However if a hybrid vote means a new forum designed bridge pickup ALONG WITH a neck pickup, i'd be interested in seeing what we come up with.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I think both the Zebro and the hybrid should be available as a set. The bridge pickup for the hybrid vote is not complete though.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Well we could finalize the hybrid or we could go straight for the ZeBro vs Hybrid vote.

TBH though I am unsure if the unknown of the bridge PU would work for or against the hybrid.

What do the rest of you guys think?

 

[superpete]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

maybe just go ahead with the zebro vs hybrid. no sense spending a week designing a hybrid bridge pickup if the majority is gonna vote for a zebro no matter what.

 

[VHTJay]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

My opinion: if you put the Zebro up against the hybrid right now, I call the Zebro winning. Tone wise, there seems to be a consensus on what it will do and alot of people are on board with that, including myself. I could give a crap if if it does authentic P90. The fact it will capture some of that vibe with clarity is pretty cool.

The hybrid STILL isn't very clear, in regard to tone. There is alot of ground in and between vintage hot and low output modern. I mean, I have played PAF'S "hotter" than my demons and even S-Decos. ....which I would call modern and moderate. Maybe a better way to tackle this is to try and consolidate what we want the humbucker to do. Or, DarkMatter can just make an executive decision and put it to vote.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Very good question Keeper. I'd like to have both designs finished before choosing between the two. But I dont know how many others are on the fence, probably not too many.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

My opinion: if you put the Zebro up against the hybrid right now, I call the Zebro winning. Tone wise, there seems to be a consensus on what it will do and alot of people are on board with that, including myself. I could give a crap if if it does authentic P90. The fact it will capture some of that vibe with clarity is pretty cool.

The hybrid STILL isn't very clear, in regard to tone. There is alot of ground in and between vintage hot and low output modern. I mean, I have played PAF'S "hotter" than my demons and even S-Decos. ....which I would call modern and moderate. Maybe a better way to tackle this is to try and consolidate what we want the humbucker to do. Or, DarkMatter can just make an executive decision and put it to vote.

I agree, I'm trying to get the hybrid design moving. Bring the conversation folks, good or bad.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Well, we've more or less said that the neck would be the centerpiece like last time, meant to pair up nicely with the C/59. However IMO there's no point to the bridge being identical or even really close to the C/59, we could just go for the C/59 and be done with it.
Conversely, if we design a bridge that is too far apart from the C/59 then we can't have the neck be both a pair for than AND the new bridge and be equally well suited to both.

The way I see it there's two roads we could take.

• Use the "imagine a neck pickup that was meant to pair up with a bridge LIKE the 59/C" but then we go and do our own thing completely, our new neck still being a nice pair-up for the 59/C BUT meant to be the ideal pair of the new bridge
  OR
• take the C/59 as the very foundation of the bridge pickup and tweak here or there.

To be absolutely honest I am not thrilled with option number two for the aforementioned reasons but, once again, I am not alone in this here.

Now, if I were to dream up my favorite hybrid I'd take those qualities I loved most in my favorite old-school pickup and those I like best in those new ones and try to mash them up.
For me it was the PG/Alt8 combo. The Pearly Gates is IMHO the most expressive P.A.F. styled pickup in the entire SD line and, well, like I said, the thing that made the Alt8 stand out was that it is clear and well-defined but not sterile, still has a lot of character.

I cannot believe there isn't anyone else that can't think of a combination of his "sea meets mountain" pickups. They could even NOT be SDs just for comparison's sake. After all, I don't believe ANYONE here actually expects the CS to take one bobbin from one floor model and another from another and just put them together. That's no custom pickup at all!

For instance, if I were to describe the bridge I want the SD CS to make I'd describe it as:
"A pickup with those qualities unique to hybrids such as the SD 59/C; it would have the qualities, the tonality and character of great P.A.F. pickups like the Pearly Gates but it would also have full but tight bass, not scooped but also not over-imposing mids and clear and sweet highs that never get shrill. Generally an open, full and well-balanced EQ like the modern SD pickups such as the Alternate 8".

What's yours? I think that's how we'll get sth we'll all feel excited and passionate about!

 

[ItsaBass]

Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I vote to finalize each design before putting them up against each other.

For the tweaked '59/C, I nominate something that takes the stock '59/C and makes it:

1. Brighter, brasher, more cutting, stinging, and wildly aggressive on the top end - more treble, even more high midrange, less bass, less low midrange. Just tilt the e.q. see-saw up a bit, favoring high mids. I would like a ceramic flavor to the thing.

2. More clarity. I want it not to hit the amp so hard, so it's cleaner, and not to be so bottom heavy that it loses definition when you dig in. Right now it's a moderate output pickup. I'd like the new version to remain a moderate output pickup, but lean toward the clarity and output of a lower-moderate output pickup, like the Screamin' Demon.

3. Retain the classic humbucker design/look: slugs, screws, and able to accept a standard metal cover. No matter what it sounds like, I won't ever buy one if it looks like an aftermarket pickup. I like my guitars looking mostly stock, even when they're modified.

Someone here has already built a prototype that he says accomplishes this pretty well. If he made it according to the idea, it's made from the slug coil and ceramic magnet from a Custom, and the screw coil from a '59n.

My other nomination is very simple. Simply give us the other half of the '59/C Hybrid: the slug coil of the '59 with the screw coil and ceramic magnet of the Custom. It would have a similar wind to the current '59/C, but unlike the factory hybrid, the stronger coil would be the screw coil, and the magnet would be ceramic, resulting in a different tone. This is the other pickup that people who make their own '59/C hybrids end up with, and it might even be a logical candidate to put into production as the neck match to the '59/C.

 

[VHTJay]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Well, we've more or less said that the neck would be the centerpiece like last time, meant to pair up nicely with the C/59. However IMO there's no point to the bridge being identical or even really close to the C/59, we could just go for the C/59 and be done with it.
Conversely, if we design a bridge that is too far apart from the C/59 then we can't have the neck be both a pair for than AND the new bridge and be equally well suited to both.

The way I see it there's two roads we could take.

• Use the "imagine a neck pickup that was meant to pair up with a bridge LIKE the 59/C" but then we go and do our own thing completely, our new neck still being a nice pair-up for the 59/C BUT meant to be the ideal pair of the new bridge
  OR
• take the C/59 as the very foundation of the bridge pickup and tweak here or there.

To be absolutely honest I am not thrilled with option number two for the aforementioned reasons but, once again, I am not alone in this here.

Now, if I were to dream up my favorite hybrid I'd take those qualities I loved most in my favorite old-school pickup and those I like best in those new ones and try to mash them up.
For me it was the PG/Alt8 combo. The Pearly Gates is IMHO the most expressive P.A.F. styled pickup in the entire SD line and, well, like I said, the thing that made the Alt8 stand out was that it is clear and well-defined but not sterile, still has a lot of character.

I cannot believe there isn't anyone else that can't think of a combination of his "sea meets mountain" pickups. They could even NOT be SDs just for comparison's sake. After all, I don't believe ANYONE here actually expects the CS to take one bobbin from one floor model and another from another and just put them together. That's no custom pickup at all!

For instance, if I were to describe the bridge I want the SD CS to make I'd describe it as:
"A pickup with those qualities unique to hybrids such as the SD 59/C; it would have the qualities, the tonality and character of great P.A.F. pickups like the Pearly Gates but it would also have full but tight bass, not scooped but also not over-imposing mids and clear and sweet highs that never get shrill. Generally an open, full and well-balanced EQ like the modern SD pickups such as the Alternate 8".

What's yours? I think that's how we'll get sth we'll all feel excited and passionate about!

So, just to be clear: ideally, in your opinion, the neck pickup will work great with the current hybrid as well as its matching bridge.

The matching bridge will be a NEW design combining the tonality of the Pearly Gates with the attack, tightness and clarity of an Alt 8. Sounds like a killer vintage/modern hybrid. I would be all over that. Great idea and I hope it gains some traction!