Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

After all, I don't believe ANYONE here actually expects the CS to take one bobbin from one floor model and another from another and just put them together. That's no custom pickup at all!

I think this push was something that negatively effected the fugly... people pushed for new and weird so it could be custom and it went off the rails. Now people are reluctant to say anything cause they dont want to repeat the fugly but people are still demanding unique...

Really its a silly demand... How many pickup models have SD themselves made by just swapping a mag? Hell the C/59 that we are all using as the basis of this hybrid is just stock parts and no one has ever accused it of being an unorginal idea. Why reinvent the wheel? I guarantee you that if SD can save themselves doing the R+D they will. IF you can accomplish the goal using parts that are on the shelf thats not unorignal... thats smart.


To me the C/59 sounds like a nice mix of the best of the both the 59 and the custom... if we are building a neck version of this why not as a companion bridge somethign that sounds like a cross breed between a JB and a Jazz?

I know this would have to be developed somewhat as the JB/Jazz hybrid is a bit lack luster. Ok let me be more specific I tried using the screw coil from a JB with the slug coil from a jazz and found it kind of bleh sounding. But im wondering if using a JB slug (which is how i should have tried it) with a Jazz bridge screw would get me where i would want.

Give me drop in power from the JB but still plently loud tighten up the bass a bit and bring in a bit of uppper mids while taming the JB's mid spike a bit, all with a clean and clear top end. Could even specify rough cast magnet to give it a bit more mid range detail.

I wouldnt care if they wound new coils for this but if they didnt have too hey all the merrier.

From a marketing stand point i think its pretty cool... a neck made of the best of the Custom and 59 and a bridge made of the best of the JB and the Jazz.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I'm starting to see some trends developing. More upper mid range, Clean/Clear/Bright, Tighten/Reduce bass, maintain hybrid complexity/character. I think these characteristics would work well together as a "let the amp do the work" type of bridge pickup. This is something we can work with.

Output seems to be a bit of a hang up though, for that, the best thing we could do is say moderate and let it be whatever it will be.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Output seems to be a bit of a hang up though, for that, the best thing we could do is say moderate and let it be whatever it will be.

Well, respecting the original idea of a neck p'up to match the '59/Custom, the output has to be "adequate"; neither "hot" or "low". Just "adequate".

A ballpark figure I can imagine, it might well lie somewhere between a Seth neck and a Jazz neck, depending on the magnet chosen to go with. As for the ballpark voicing, I'd like it to be closer to a modern voicing than a vintage one. This is just one man's wish, of course.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

For the tweaked '59/C, I nominate something that takes the stock '59/C and makes it:
1. Brighter, brasher, more cutting, stinging, and wildly aggressive on the top end - more treble, even more high midrange, less bass, less low midrange. Just tilt the e.q. see-saw up a bit, favoring high mids. I would like a ceramic flavor to the thing.
2. More clarity. I want it not to hit the amp so hard, so it's cleaner, and not to be so bottom heavy that it loses definition when you dig in. Right now it's a moderate output pickup. I'd like the new version to remain a moderate output pickup, but lean toward the clarity and output of a lower-moderate output pickup, like the Screamin' Demon.
3. Retain the classic humbucker design/look: slugs, screws, and able to accept a standard metal cover. No matter what it sounds like, I won't ever buy one if it looks like an aftermarket pickup. I like my guitars looking mostly stock, even when they're modified.

1. and 2. That I mostly agree with, although I also wish the bass to be fuller while all at the same time being tighter. Again I'm thinking of the Alt8 when I think of tight-yet-full bass.
3. That I don't (necessarily) agree with. I don't want another Fugly in our hands but double screws is nothing I really feel for or against and wouldn't wanna limit the CS in that way. I say we don't mention construction at all and we leave it to the CS, although I expect that more than likely they'll grant your wish

So, just to be clear: ideally, in your opinion, the neck pickup will work great with the current hybrid as well as its matching bridge.
The matching bridge will be a NEW design combining the tonality of the Pearly Gates with the attack, tightness and clarity of an Alt 8. Sounds like a killer vintage/modern hybrid. I would be all over that. Great idea and I hope it gains some traction!

For the neck, to be precise, a neck pu made SPECIFICALLY to match the new bridge but that still matches greatly with the 59/C. Just like the Jazz was meant for the JB but still matches wonderfully with mostly everything I've paired it with
For the bridge, that's the idea, although I forgot to mention NOT with the output of either the PG NOR the Alt8 but rather one comparable to the 59/C hybrid, so that it'll make it easier for the neck to be matched with it too!

I think this push was something that negatively effected the fugly... people pushed for new and weird so it could be custom and it went off the rails. Now people are reluctant to say anything cause they dont want to repeat the fugly but people are still demanding unique... ...

While I agree 100% that you don't need to ask for something whacky just so it can be unique, the way I see it, there's ZERO reason to ask the CS to build you something that you can order from SD as a shop-floor-custom 7 days a week. Combining existing bobbins is something you could ALWAYS do.
Hell, you can call them right now and ask them for a Custom 8 (not in existence as an official model but with all the parts already available to the shop floor) and they'll send you one at the cost of a Custom. What's the point of going for that? I'm not talking reinventing the wheel but like DarkMatter said, the SD Custom Shop excels at taking pickup DESCRIPTIONS and producing amazingly accurate results, why not make full use of their abilities? If they decide that a tweak here or there of an already existing pickup is all it'll take then fine by me, but if I know them I think they'll take the chance to redesign it from scratch. Why miss on that?

I'm starting to see some trends developing. More upper mid range, Clean/Clear/Bright, Tighten/Reduce bass, maintain hybrid complexity/character. I think these characteristics would work well together as a "let the amp do the work" type of bridge pickup. This is something we can work with.

Output seems to be a bit of a hang up though, for that, the best thing we could do is say moderate and let it be whatever it will be.

Like I mentioned above, if we are to have the neck pair up with the 59/C, it'd be in our interest to also have the new bridge be of comparable output. Simply stating "...with output comparable to the 59/C" should be enough. It's in the ballpark but doesn't give a hard number that will limit the CS in their work.
Also, bass-wise, I don't think so much "less" as "tighter"/"not so mushy" would be the more accurate description, although with added mids and highs you might as well raise it a little and it'll still be perceived as less

 

[ItsaBass]

Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Requesting a hybrid is not a SFC order. It's a $170 Custom Shop order, just about like anything else we dream up here (plus shipping and, if you are in CA, sales tax). To me, getting a break on that is a more than valid reason to make a simple hybrid one of the forum pickups.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

While I agree 100% that you don't need to ask for something whacky just so it can be unique, the way I see it, there's ZERO reason to ask the CS to build you something that you can order from SD as a shop-floor-custom 7 days a week. Combining existing bobbins is something you could ALWAYS do.
Hell, you can call them right now and ask them for a Custom 8 (not in existence as an official model but with all the parts already available to the shop floor) and they'll send you one at the cost of a Custom. What's the point of going for that? I'm not talking reinventing the wheel but like DarkMatter said, the SD Custom Shop excels at taking pickup DESCRIPTIONS and producing amazingly accurate results, why not make full use of their abilities? If they decide that a tweak here or there of an already existing pickup is all it'll take then fine by me, but if I know them I think they'll take the chance to redesign it from scratch. Why miss on that?

A hybrid is not available as a shop floor custom... a mag swap is... a hybrid will come from the custom shop ANYTHING we dream up is available all day every day from the custom shop thats the nature of it being a custom shop.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I was under the impression that using two preexisting bobbins was a shop-floor custom but will defer to those with more experience than I.
The point however was that it is something (relatively) easy for anyone with basic knowledge to make, it doesn't require the talent of a master builder (winder?). A hybrid of two preexisting pickups simply doesn't merit a Custom Shop run. I just don't see it making full use of the CS's abilities. I don't think I am alone on this.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

As for the ballpark voicing, I'd like it to be closer to a modern voicing than a vintage one. This is just one man's wish, of course.

I thought you were mostly a vintage kinda guy Pepe?


On the subject of existing coils, I just wanted to avoid everybody suggesting coils to pair up. We could go on for months down that road. If the CS decides to use existing coils, that's fine. They are the experts.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I thought you were mostly a vintage kinda guy Pepe?

Not really, no; I just use whatever I consider the best tool for the task at hand, meaning going from Electric City Pickups RD-59s on my #1 335 copy to a Yamaha Pacifica loaded with an active SA/SA/89R set. All very different brushes and colors to paint the canvas.

Maybe is just wishful thinking, but I'm picturing the tonal outcome of this neck p'up close to Chuck Loeb's clean Sadowsky Strat, as it could be a very good match for the inherent clean '59/Custom tone.



Go to 7:30 and listen to this beautiful neck p'up tone throughout this song. Warmth AND Articulation in the same neck p'up is kinda "wet dream" of mine, LOL!

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I'll give that a listen when I'm off work and I have my good headphones.

I'm with ya on the warmth and articulation.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Gave it a quick listen, great tunes!
YES, that's that liquid feel I've been telling all great neck pus share, I LOVE that quality, although I'd prefer it if our pickup had more bite to it when hitting the strings harder, nor razor sharp mind you!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Gave it a quick listen, great tunes!
YES, that's that liquid feel I've been telling all great neck pus share, I LOVE that quality, although I'd prefer it if our pickup had more bite to it when hitting the strings harder, nor razor sharp mind you!

Chuck's Sadowsky uses a Custom-made-for-Sadowsky p'up made by Di Marzio, and it uses a preamp. Specs-wise, this particular p'up is close to a Full-shred, but with a different voicing. In the vdeo shown and in the song referenced, the tone control was NOT full, and rule-of-thumb-wise, Chuck rarely has his tone control full-up.

In this video, Chuck uses a different amp, while conserving his "tone-footprint".



The guy's a life-lesson on tone, LOL!

HTH,

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

He sure does know tone! The only thing I feel I prefer differently is that his tone like his playing is too polite, I like it a bit more aggressive and hard-hitting, but that's just personal preference.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

So, DarkMatter; what's next?

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I was trying to wait and see if more people would respond in here about the voicing... oh well. There is still the double screw coil aspect, we could vote on that but I don't think too many people are really pressing for it. That or have the final battle.

 

[VHTJay]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I was trying to wait and see if more people would respond in here about the voicing... oh well. There is still the double screw coil aspect, we could vote on that but I don't think too many people are really pressing for it. That or have the final battle.

Ya, it is a little disappointing. It would be nice to have a cool hybrid option to go up against the Zebro, but I just don't think it is in the cards. KeeperOS and ItsaBass have been pretty vocal, which is awesome, but the ideas haven't seemed to really gain traction.

Kind of a tough situation: we want to keep it tonality based as much as possible.....but people have pretty strong opinions on what they want and don't want in that context. The polls show that....output and voicing votes are really kinda all over the place.

The other side is to chance the "forbidden road" and actually get in to design parameters: choosing a magnet, wire gauge, pole pieces, etc. You would probably get people contributing then.....and just might get a pickup taking shape.....but there are obviously problems that can occur this way as well.

Is the option somewhere in between? Maybe it is worth talking about. I don't think there is any rush, is there?

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

Maybe have a poll asking if everyone is ok with the 2 designs as they are?

I'm not trying to rush, but it does seem like the longer this goes on, the fewer the votes cast. The spec votes are something I considered, but who knows what we'd end up with.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

So, let's try to recap.

• The neck will be a pickup that will be calibrated to pair up with the 59/C, yet NOT be made to be its' calibrated pair.
  Instead, it'll be calibrated to be paired with a new pickup that, compared to the C/59 will be more open and mostly evenly EQed, with more upper mid range, a sweeter but clear (not rounded) high-end, clean and articulate but not sterile a-la Screamin Demon, with a full-yet-tight bass that never gets boomy or flabby but still fills out the low-end nicely.
  [*]Output-wise it would be comparable to the C/59 but not necessarily the same.
  [*]Tone-wise some have expressed interest in it mostly retaining the 59/C voicing, others (namely me) have requested a tonality reminiscent of the Pearly Gates. Pretty much all of us agree that we wish to pair the tonality/voicing of a great old-school sound with the openness, clarity and fullness of modern pickups.

Ok, is it just me or isn't the after-thought (the bridge) better framed than the original focus (the neck)? How do we want the NECK to SOUND like, other than pair up with the 59/C?
I think the Fygly's initial plan hasn't been opposed by anyone (it even were an option for a redo) and there have been a few added preferences.

With that in mind, how about we describe the neck as such: (obviously subject to change)

• For the neck pickup we take the FuglyBucker's tonality and voicing as the base, strip it of its' unique (and polarizing) construction and where the FB favored extremely clear and clean high end, this one will focus on being warmth (yet clear i.e. not boomy) and articulate.
  [*]Output-wise it should be able to be paired up with the 59/C

How does that sound?

 

[Grenade]

Re: Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

I like this idea.

 

[ItsaBass]

Forum design vote #5.10 (Hybrid?)

That sounds totally wrong to me. The neck is described just fine; there's nothing up in the air about it. Pretty much everyone voted for DarkMatter's description of it. It's the bridge that has not been determined.

As for the Fugly suggestion, hell no. What would be the point of this entire process we've gone through if we chuck it all out and go with an entirely non-related option?

I say we close nominations for the bridge as of the moment the poll closed, as people have had the entire running time of this poll to nominate bridge designs. DarkMatter can just go through the thread, pick out all the bridge nominations that have been made, and put them all up for a vote. The winner of that poll will go up against the split single (Z-Whatever-it's-Called).