Forum design vote #6 (again)
- Thread starter DarkMatter
- Start date
- Status
ItsaBass
New member
Forum design vote #6 (again)
It is supposed to have significantly mismatched coils, like the '59/C Hybrid has. It is not supposed to be made by combining pre-existing coils. So, it is not a hybrid, in any currently-used form of the word by S.D.; it is just a pickup with a significant coil mismatch. "Hybrid" (or "Hy-[anything]") is a misnomer, plain and simple. This has been brought up many times throughout this process, but for some reason it continues to inaccurately be called the Hybrid.
FWIW, I am all for this pickup actually being a hybrid. I was always in favor of simply combining pre-existing coils – a "real" hybrid. It would be incredibly cheap and easy for the Custom Shop, and would probably yield outstanding results ('59n slug coil, Custom screw coil, and ceramic magnet was one of my suggestions). But so many people were violently against that idea throughout this process; they wanted something "more special."
At any rate, I've accepted that I'm one of the few who actually does want a simple hybrid, and I realize that's not gonna happen because people want something more special. My point is simply that the pickup being named the hybrid, which it is not, inaccurately represents it. And it is in writing several times throughout these polls that people voted for the Zebro just because they didn't want a hybrid of existing coils...even though that's not what the "Hybrid" would be. If it had been named appropriately in the first place, it would have already won. In other words, the last poll got tied because of a misnomer on one of the pickups...so we're re-voting to break the tie, but with the same misnomer.
It is supposed to have significantly mismatched coils, like the '59/C Hybrid has. It is not supposed to be made by combining pre-existing coils. So, it is not a hybrid, in any currently-used form of the word by S.D.; it is just a pickup with a significant coil mismatch. "Hybrid" (or "Hy-[anything]") is a misnomer, plain and simple. This has been brought up many times throughout this process, but for some reason it continues to inaccurately be called the Hybrid.
FWIW, I am all for this pickup actually being a hybrid. I was always in favor of simply combining pre-existing coils – a "real" hybrid. It would be incredibly cheap and easy for the Custom Shop, and would probably yield outstanding results ('59n slug coil, Custom screw coil, and ceramic magnet was one of my suggestions). But so many people were violently against that idea throughout this process; they wanted something "more special."
At any rate, I've accepted that I'm one of the few who actually does want a simple hybrid, and I realize that's not gonna happen because people want something more special. My point is simply that the pickup being named the hybrid, which it is not, inaccurately represents it. And it is in writing several times throughout these polls that people voted for the Zebro just because they didn't want a hybrid of existing coils...even though that's not what the "Hybrid" would be. If it had been named appropriately in the first place, it would have already won. In other words, the last poll got tied because of a misnomer on one of the pickups...so we're re-voting to break the tie, but with the same misnomer.
Last edited:
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
You take the existing neck '59 coil and combine it with what would in theory be the coil from a neck Custom.
The cool part about that is that in doing so we might end up helping Duncan develop a whole new line of pickups by creating a neck Custom to hybridize, so the R&D development money/time could end up being spread out.
Wouldn't you consider my idea a hybrid of the two schools of thought on this? (har har... see what I did there?)
You take the existing neck '59 coil and combine it with what would in theory be the coil from a neck Custom.
The cool part about that is that in doing so we might end up helping Duncan develop a whole new line of pickups by creating a neck Custom to hybridize, so the R&D development money/time could end up being spread out.
dominus
King Midas to Cheap Guitars
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
I still say people are designing with their eyes and not their ears. Pickups are supposed to be for getting sound out of the guitar and into the amp. While there are good sounding pickups out there, people are put off by odd designs. (The PATBs, and the FuglyBucker for example.) It just makes more sense to say "hey, this is the *sound* we're looking for, can you make this?" Once the Fuglybucker was designed, no one wanted to buy it, even though it was supposed to be a great sounding pickup. This *will* happen with the "ZeBro". They'll sell 10 of them, and it probably *will* kill off the forum-designed pickup idea. The forum members can't be trusted. It's going WAY beyond the original forum pickup idea, which was to come up with a custom shop design and sell it to the forum members at a discount. The "this is cool and hasn't been done before" doesn't sound like anything.
I do like the idea of a neck pickup that matches the 59/C, and possibly a new medium-hot output bridge pickup that would either stand on its own or be a match for the new neck pickup. (Overwound Demon territory?) Whether or not these are hybrids or mismatched coils should be left up to the person winding the pickup.
If anything, they should crowd-source these, see if people really will put their money where their keyboards are.
I'm interested in the Zebro, as a concept, but if the Hybro mofo fills a spot people have been after to go with 59/Custom, then that would make sense.
Would be a shame not to pursue the Zebro idea either way though
I still say people are designing with their eyes and not their ears. Pickups are supposed to be for getting sound out of the guitar and into the amp. While there are good sounding pickups out there, people are put off by odd designs. (The PATBs, and the FuglyBucker for example.) It just makes more sense to say "hey, this is the *sound* we're looking for, can you make this?" Once the Fuglybucker was designed, no one wanted to buy it, even though it was supposed to be a great sounding pickup. This *will* happen with the "ZeBro". They'll sell 10 of them, and it probably *will* kill off the forum-designed pickup idea. The forum members can't be trusted. It's going WAY beyond the original forum pickup idea, which was to come up with a custom shop design and sell it to the forum members at a discount. The "this is cool and hasn't been done before" doesn't sound like anything.
I do like the idea of a neck pickup that matches the 59/C, and possibly a new medium-hot output bridge pickup that would either stand on its own or be a match for the new neck pickup. (Overwound Demon territory?) Whether or not these are hybrids or mismatched coils should be left up to the person winding the pickup.
If anything, they should crowd-source these, see if people really will put their money where their keyboards are.
Last edited:
DarkMatter
Unprofessional Toneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
I never thought about it like that. To me, hybrid just means 2 different coils, not necessarily existing coils. Besides, it's been brought up over and over again in these threads that this should have original coils. The majority is in favor of that.
I never thought about it like that. To me, hybrid just means 2 different coils, not necessarily existing coils. Besides, it's been brought up over and over again in these threads that this should have original coils. The majority is in favor of that.
DreX
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
I really don't think that's true, in fact I've never heard anyone say they were in love with the look of the 3+3, which the Zebro would look identical to. People want a noise cancelling, P-90 or single coilish or wide-range style humbucker-route pickup with single point string sensing. The awesome thing about the Zebro is that, in theory, they should be able to hot wind it to a peak of 4kHz, getting into Stra-Bro 90 territory, so that when wired parallel, it would bump up to 8kHz, and should sound like a good noiseless single coil with an offset to boot.
IMO, I wouldn't use this pickup in a Les Paul style guitar, but it would be perfect in a humbucker wielding Fender, which is why I'd prefer exposable long bobbins, most Fenders look better with uncovered humbuckers (I would say "IMO" but there's not much of a debate to be had here), and I'll just fill the six holes with molding plastic myself.
I really don't think that's true, in fact I've never heard anyone say they were in love with the look of the 3+3, which the Zebro would look identical to. People want a noise cancelling, P-90 or single coilish or wide-range style humbucker-route pickup with single point string sensing. The awesome thing about the Zebro is that, in theory, they should be able to hot wind it to a peak of 4kHz, getting into Stra-Bro 90 territory, so that when wired parallel, it would bump up to 8kHz, and should sound like a good noiseless single coil with an offset to boot.
IMO, I wouldn't use this pickup in a Les Paul style guitar, but it would be perfect in a humbucker wielding Fender, which is why I'd prefer exposable long bobbins, most Fenders look better with uncovered humbuckers (I would say "IMO" but there's not much of a debate to be had here), and I'll just fill the six holes with molding plastic myself.
DreX
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
I'm surprised to see so much clamoring for a neck version of a bridge pickup. In several guitars I have like-sets, and in all cases the output mismatch is either unnoticeable, or remedied by simply lowering the neck relative to the bridge. When you ask a winder to make a neck version of a bridge, things are going to change somehow. Nothing will get closer to a particular voicing than a second instance of the same pickup.
I'm surprised to see so much clamoring for a neck version of a bridge pickup. In several guitars I have like-sets, and in all cases the output mismatch is either unnoticeable, or remedied by simply lowering the neck relative to the bridge. When you ask a winder to make a neck version of a bridge, things are going to change somehow. Nothing will get closer to a particular voicing than a second instance of the same pickup.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
Man Iam so with you here... The insistence on reinventing the wheel drives me bonkers.
But at this point I must confess as it stands the misnamed hybrid is the slightly better of the 2 ideas.
The zebro has firmly became a solution looking for a problem. Its literally in the state that people want to build it then hope it sounds cool. So far i havent seen any input from anyone who would know as to what its outcome could possibly be. I always thought the idea was for it to be a noisless p90 in a humbucker slot... if that was the goal i think the best approach would be give nothing in the way of form factor to the custom shop and let them design the solution. Instead the idea of the split coils has hung on and seems like things are having to be twisted to even get them to work. All without any assurances of success. Maybe im wrong but thats the direction i see this going in.
Man Iam so with you here... The insistence on reinventing the wheel drives me bonkers.
But at this point I must confess as it stands the misnamed hybrid is the slightly better of the 2 ideas.
The zebro has firmly became a solution looking for a problem. Its literally in the state that people want to build it then hope it sounds cool. So far i havent seen any input from anyone who would know as to what its outcome could possibly be. I always thought the idea was for it to be a noisless p90 in a humbucker slot... if that was the goal i think the best approach would be give nothing in the way of form factor to the custom shop and let them design the solution. Instead the idea of the split coils has hung on and seems like things are having to be twisted to even get them to work. All without any assurances of success. Maybe im wrong but thats the direction i see this going in.
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
Reading your post almost makes me wonder if the basic idea of the pickup was indeed even defined to begin with and is in a Fuglybucker kind of situation.
If it was, can somebody please reference the initial agreed-upon definition of what the Zebro is actually supposed to do?
Reading your post almost makes me wonder if the basic idea of the pickup was indeed even defined to begin with and is in a Fuglybucker kind of situation.
If it was, can somebody please reference the initial agreed-upon definition of what the Zebro is actually supposed to do?
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
Umm no... sorry scoobs but your dead wrong there. Any pickup that has a clearly defined idea behind it doesnt suffer from this. This one suffers hard from it.
BTW why are you allowed to have your own perceptions and iam not allowed to have mine?
Umm no... sorry scoobs but your dead wrong there. Any pickup that has a clearly defined idea behind it doesnt suffer from this. This one suffers hard from it.
BTW why are you allowed to have your own perceptions and iam not allowed to have mine?
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
What I saw was the idea bounce back and forth... the z coil idea started as way to get a noiseless P90 without the drawbacks inherent to stacks. Then people came along and said it wasnt possible so it was pushed that the idea of the z coils must go forward even if it meant dropping that it would sound like a p90 after that the sound was defined in general terms and i even remember disagreeing on what the perceptions of "vintage output" and "high output" were. But the target wasnt ever very solid... atleast that i saw. Maybe it was and i missed it.
What I saw was the idea bounce back and forth... the z coil idea started as way to get a noiseless P90 without the drawbacks inherent to stacks. Then people came along and said it wasnt possible so it was pushed that the idea of the z coils must go forward even if it meant dropping that it would sound like a p90 after that the sound was defined in general terms and i even remember disagreeing on what the perceptions of "vintage output" and "high output" were. But the target wasnt ever very solid... atleast that i saw. Maybe it was and i missed it.
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
Maybe we should solidify the idea before deciding later details.
Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk
That's how it's read to me so far.
Maybe we should solidify the idea before deciding later details.
Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk
DreX
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
A Z-coil is a clearly defined idea, it's a humbucking PAF-humucker-shaped pickup with single point string sensing, offset between the top and bottom three strings. You could ask what problem a Wide Range humbucker solves while you're at it. How hot the pickup winds are, or the magnet used, is actually more trivial and subject to personal preference, than what has been defined so far.
A Z-coil is a clearly defined idea, it's a humbucking PAF-humucker-shaped pickup with single point string sensing, offset between the top and bottom three strings. You could ask what problem a Wide Range humbucker solves while you're at it. How hot the pickup winds are, or the magnet used, is actually more trivial and subject to personal preference, than what has been defined so far.
DarkMatter
Unprofessional Toneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
The Zebro actually makes a lot of sense, and it's technically workable. I have the feeling not to many of its detractors have read the discussions on it. I'm not trying to change minds but you shouldn't be so critical of it. Having said that I put my vote towards the hybrid. I want the best pickup possible for the forum. Neither design is something I'm really looking for but the hybrid should be more successful.
The Zebro actually makes a lot of sense, and it's technically workable. I have the feeling not to many of its detractors have read the discussions on it. I'm not trying to change minds but you shouldn't be so critical of it. Having said that I put my vote towards the hybrid. I want the best pickup possible for the forum. Neither design is something I'm really looking for but the hybrid should be more successful.
DreX
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
If the Zebro ends up being nothing more than a 3+3 with a P-90 target voice, I'm OK with that. I think it would be cool to put forth both ideas and see which did better sales after a couple years (to give non forum members a chance to find it).
Side question regarding the 3+3, as long as there are two full length bobbins under the hood, why not stagger the poles, like near/far/near/far/near/far? I've never heard of a pickup that did this. If someone has a Scremin' Demon, this would also be easy to try out.
If the Zebro ends up being nothing more than a 3+3 with a P-90 target voice, I'm OK with that. I think it would be cool to put forth both ideas and see which did better sales after a couple years (to give non forum members a chance to find it).
Side question regarding the 3+3, as long as there are two full length bobbins under the hood, why not stagger the poles, like near/far/near/far/near/far? I've never heard of a pickup that did this. If someone has a Scremin' Demon, this would also be easy to try out.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
I have read all the discussions and participated in many of them. I am critical because its never been hammered in stone said "we need this tone... this form factor is the solution to achieve it"
Being technically workable isnt a good justification on its own. Iron lungs are technically workable, making toilet seats out of gold is technically workable doesnt make them a good idea for the end you are trying to achieve.
I have read all the discussions and participated in many of them. I am critical because its never been hammered in stone said "we need this tone... this form factor is the solution to achieve it"
Being technically workable isnt a good justification on its own. Iron lungs are technically workable, making toilet seats out of gold is technically workable doesnt make them a good idea for the end you are trying to achieve.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
One of the original tenets that was passed around when this exercise began was to clearly define the sound goal before hand, The goal posts with the z pickup have been moved multiple times. Its lost any focus it has had. It was said that the fugly suffered from people designing spec first then hoping it would sound good. In many ways the ferocity with which the z idea has been clung too mimics this spec first sound later approach.
The reasons behind fenders wide range pickups have nothing to do with what the purpose of the forum run pickup was about. Even then the wide range pickup solved a problem that fender had with their line up. Even if its a simplistic one.
One of the original tenets that was passed around when this exercise began was to clearly define the sound goal before hand, The goal posts with the z pickup have been moved multiple times. Its lost any focus it has had. It was said that the fugly suffered from people designing spec first then hoping it would sound good. In many ways the ferocity with which the z idea has been clung too mimics this spec first sound later approach.
The reasons behind fenders wide range pickups have nothing to do with what the purpose of the forum run pickup was about. Even then the wide range pickup solved a problem that fender had with their line up. Even if its a simplistic one.
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
BUT, to your point, which possibility does everybody want to go with?
I myself would like something Strat-y sounding with the 3 poles closest to the neck being on the treble side. But that's me. I realize that I'm a strange bird and not everybody would like what I like. :duck:
I like the idea of a 3+3 split single coil under a PAF-type cover. It has lots of possibilities.
BUT, to your point, which possibility does everybody want to go with?
I myself would like something Strat-y sounding with the 3 poles closest to the neck being on the treble side. But that's me. I realize that I'm a strange bird and not everybody would like what I like. :duck:
Ascension
New member
Re: Forum design vote #6 (again)
Hybrid for me to pair in the neck with a custom/59 Hybrid bridge in the Washy I have had on the back burner for a while.
This for those who have forgotten her.
Got to get the body into paint soon and finish this thang. Decided on 2015 Chrysler Velvet Red Pearl as the color
Hybrid for me to pair in the neck with a custom/59 Hybrid bridge in the Washy I have had on the back burner for a while.
This for those who have forgotten her.
Got to get the body into paint soon and finish this thang. Decided on 2015 Chrysler Velvet Red Pearl as the color
- Status
