Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
- Thread starter Masta' C
- Start date
ItsaBass
New member
Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
EDIT: Schedule updated
I just added a proposed schedule to the initial post:
1) Collect ideas from forum members -> Done
2) Create "feeler" poll of initial ideas -> In progress (i.e. this poll)
3) Reach out to SD directly to present Top 2 "winning" ideas from each category (P-90 Themes/Everything Else) and assess SD's interest in collaborating
4) Create "tiebreaker" polls, if needed
5) Generate discussion thread to gather feedback regarding tone, output, wiring options, colors/covers, etc. to include in final design poll
6) Create "Tone and Options" poll to finalize design specifics for presentation to SD
7) Create a purchase interest poll to estimate sales potential of approved design(s)
EDIT: Schedule updated
I just added a proposed schedule to the initial post:
1) Collect ideas from forum members -> Done
2) Create "feeler" poll of initial ideas -> In progress (i.e. this poll)
3) Reach out to SD directly to present Top 2 "winning" ideas from each category (P-90 Themes/Everything Else) and assess SD's interest in collaborating
4) Create "tiebreaker" polls, if needed
5) Generate discussion thread to gather feedback regarding tone, output, wiring options, colors/covers, etc. to include in final design poll
6) Create "Tone and Options" poll to finalize design specifics for presentation to SD
7) Create a purchase interest poll to estimate sales potential of approved design(s)
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Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
One thing I'd like to propose be added to the schedule, between 2 and 3 I think we should see if we can't arrange professional input by the Custom Shop to look at the "winning" ideas as well as a few of the nonwinnign ones so we don't have the same design by committee disaster that befell the Fuglybucker. While in theory it would be nice to have everyone throw in their ideas regarding the finalized designs, not all of us have the same vision in mind nor the experience that the Custom Shop. In a similar vein if we are in the end of all this going to be asking them for a pickup, we should get their opinion as soon as possible to make sure that our ideas fall in the category of what they would find unique enough that it would be a Custom Shop pickup without it being so niche as to not be marketable, even just within the forum.
Likewise, before we get too far down this rabbit hole, I feel that we are already starting to fall into some of the issues that lead to the disaster of the Fuglybucker design process. As I mentioned earlier, most of the ideas we brought up appear to be more focused on the particular hardware that we think would work best just because the idea sounds nice in our head, instead of an ideal sound/response we would like from our pickups. The chief example of this is the pickup design that is currently in the lead, The Vaccine. Instead of saying to ourselves "let's take the best qualities of a JB and a Custom 5 and try to add a bit more power" the current goal is "make a hybrid and toss a bigger magnet in there", despite the fact that many of us, myself included, have found that a JB/C hybrid wind does not have the distinct qualities we know from a Custom 5 and a JB.
tldr;
Too many of the ideas on the board have the finalized hardware fleshed out without even giving thought to a particular tonal goal in mind or having practical knowledge of what the coil/magnet combination might even sound like.
One thing I'd like to propose be added to the schedule, between 2 and 3 I think we should see if we can't arrange professional input by the Custom Shop to look at the "winning" ideas as well as a few of the nonwinnign ones so we don't have the same design by committee disaster that befell the Fuglybucker. While in theory it would be nice to have everyone throw in their ideas regarding the finalized designs, not all of us have the same vision in mind nor the experience that the Custom Shop. In a similar vein if we are in the end of all this going to be asking them for a pickup, we should get their opinion as soon as possible to make sure that our ideas fall in the category of what they would find unique enough that it would be a Custom Shop pickup without it being so niche as to not be marketable, even just within the forum.
Likewise, before we get too far down this rabbit hole, I feel that we are already starting to fall into some of the issues that lead to the disaster of the Fuglybucker design process. As I mentioned earlier, most of the ideas we brought up appear to be more focused on the particular hardware that we think would work best just because the idea sounds nice in our head, instead of an ideal sound/response we would like from our pickups. The chief example of this is the pickup design that is currently in the lead, The Vaccine. Instead of saying to ourselves "let's take the best qualities of a JB and a Custom 5 and try to add a bit more power" the current goal is "make a hybrid and toss a bigger magnet in there", despite the fact that many of us, myself included, have found that a JB/C hybrid wind does not have the distinct qualities we know from a Custom 5 and a JB.
tldr;
Too many of the ideas on the board have the finalized hardware fleshed out without even giving thought to a particular tonal goal in mind or having practical knowledge of what the coil/magnet combination might even sound like.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
AFAIK, Duncan makes no “replicas” in the standard line. Custom Shop reproduces Gibson Alnicos quite well, and maybe some others.
Duncan’s take on the T-top is the Saturday Night Special Neck. It’s not a “replica” down to the spec, but the T-top tone is all there. If you want an affordable T-top sounding set, get two SNS Neck pickups.
AFAIK, Duncan makes no “replicas” in the standard line. Custom Shop reproduces Gibson Alnicos quite well, and maybe some others.
Duncan’s take on the T-top is the Saturday Night Special Neck. It’s not a “replica” down to the spec, but the T-top tone is all there. If you want an affordable T-top sounding set, get two SNS Neck pickups.
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Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
You bring up some valid points. Feel free to them coming.
To address a few things...
1) Any "idea" approved through this process is subject to tweaking and final input/design/approval from SD. We do need to ensure that we are leaving room for MJ and the team to work their magic. As such, Christopher is correct in that it may be a little premature at this point to suggest too many specifics (i.e. specific magnets, DCR, etc) in most cases before gathering input and interest in collaboration from the Custom Shop. To address this, we can modify the third polling round to clarify goals of overall tone and basic features instead of material specifics. Additionally, I am happy to reach out to the company following the second round of polling, as Christopher suggested, once we have a better feel for where this may be headed.
2) I asked the forum for ideas and these are the ones that were proposed, so that's what we're working with. If you didn't suggest something, you at least had a chance to. If an idea doesn't suit your fancy or you don't see how it could be modified in a future poll to get you what you want, simply don't vote on it. "Weak" ideas will naturally be filtered out. Forum interest in the final design will be assessed before any commitment is made to the Custom Shop. If there isn't enough interest, then the project simply won't happen. No harm, no foul.
3) I left the initial inquiry completely open-ended to spur maximum creativity. Starting off by polling for opinions on "sound/response" without discussing format, etc., is subject to its own shortfalls in the larger process. There's no single best way to start a conversation around this type of thing, despite how straightforward it seems conceptually.
4) This is just for fun, so if feelings start to get hurt, the effort will be dropped like a bad habit. As a reminder, those that stuck through the Fuglybucker process, regardless of how painful and non-transparent it was, were still rewarded with excellent pickups. So, there's something to be said for putting a little "faith" in the motive behind all this, the creativity of experienced forum members, and the ability of the Custom Shop to realize a vision, regardless of how unpolished it may seem when it leaves our hands. Also, I don't think anything stemming from this effort will be quite so extreme as the Fuglies were, so take comfort in that.
You bring up some valid points. Feel free to them coming.
To address a few things...
1) Any "idea" approved through this process is subject to tweaking and final input/design/approval from SD. We do need to ensure that we are leaving room for MJ and the team to work their magic. As such, Christopher is correct in that it may be a little premature at this point to suggest too many specifics (i.e. specific magnets, DCR, etc) in most cases before gathering input and interest in collaboration from the Custom Shop. To address this, we can modify the third polling round to clarify goals of overall tone and basic features instead of material specifics. Additionally, I am happy to reach out to the company following the second round of polling, as Christopher suggested, once we have a better feel for where this may be headed.
2) I asked the forum for ideas and these are the ones that were proposed, so that's what we're working with. If you didn't suggest something, you at least had a chance to. If an idea doesn't suit your fancy or you don't see how it could be modified in a future poll to get you what you want, simply don't vote on it. "Weak" ideas will naturally be filtered out. Forum interest in the final design will be assessed before any commitment is made to the Custom Shop. If there isn't enough interest, then the project simply won't happen. No harm, no foul.
3) I left the initial inquiry completely open-ended to spur maximum creativity. Starting off by polling for opinions on "sound/response" without discussing format, etc., is subject to its own shortfalls in the larger process. There's no single best way to start a conversation around this type of thing, despite how straightforward it seems conceptually.
4) This is just for fun, so if feelings start to get hurt, the effort will be dropped like a bad habit. As a reminder, those that stuck through the Fuglybucker process, regardless of how painful and non-transparent it was, were still rewarded with excellent pickups. So, there's something to be said for putting a little "faith" in the motive behind all this, the creativity of experienced forum members, and the ability of the Custom Shop to realize a vision, regardless of how unpolished it may seem when it leaves our hands. Also, I don't think anything stemming from this effort will be quite so extreme as the Fuglies were, so take comfort in that.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
Re: the Fuglybuckers.
The reason why I ended up disappointed was that they only fit a very limited set of guitars. Flat rings, short legs, oversized bobbins. Wasn't it even custom flat-only mounting rings because of the oversized bobbins?
I think it is imperative that a new design fits a wide range of appropriate guitars - aka if it is a hummelbucker it should have standard size bobbins and we should be able to order the bridge version with long legs. That should also give HQ more confidence that the effort will pay off both sales-wise and coolness wise.
Re: the Fuglybuckers.
The reason why I ended up disappointed was that they only fit a very limited set of guitars. Flat rings, short legs, oversized bobbins. Wasn't it even custom flat-only mounting rings because of the oversized bobbins?
I think it is imperative that a new design fits a wide range of appropriate guitars - aka if it is a hummelbucker it should have standard size bobbins and we should be able to order the bridge version with long legs. That should also give HQ more confidence that the effort will pay off both sales-wise and coolness wise.
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bigcupholder
New member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
I really like this idea, even if we made it more vague and said "a humbucker with a tap on one or both coils so it can go between hot/modern and vintage sounds". Give SD some room to work with and state the end-goal more generally.
Giving exact specs for resistance and magnet type is pretending we're pickup designers (we're not). Requesting a hybrid of two production pickups also seems like a waste for the custom shop.
We'll have better results if we can describe the goal in one or two sentences with minimal specs given and then let the custom shop do their thing. Even better if that goal is an obvious gap in the current product lineup.
Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk
I really like this idea, even if we made it more vague and said "a humbucker with a tap on one or both coils so it can go between hot/modern and vintage sounds". Give SD some room to work with and state the end-goal more generally.
Giving exact specs for resistance and magnet type is pretending we're pickup designers (we're not). Requesting a hybrid of two production pickups also seems like a waste for the custom shop.
We'll have better results if we can describe the goal in one or two sentences with minimal specs given and then let the custom shop do their thing. Even better if that goal is an obvious gap in the current product lineup.
Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
I think the tappable humbucker design definitely has the most promise out of these designs. I'd also like to add a suggestion that it use screw polepieces for both coils. In a standard humbucker they have play a large part in sculpting the tone, in an asymmetrical coil design even more so.
And, just checking if I understand the idea right, you want two different wire gauges on the same coil, right? I remember a while back that BachToRock, the man behind the original hybrid, was experimenting with this same idea.
I think the tappable humbucker design definitely has the most promise out of these designs. I'd also like to add a suggestion that it use screw polepieces for both coils. In a standard humbucker they have play a large part in sculpting the tone, in an asymmetrical coil design even more so.
And, just checking if I understand the idea right, you want two different wire gauges on the same coil, right? I remember a while back that BachToRock, the man behind the original hybrid, was experimenting with this same idea.
bigcupholder
New member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
I think we'd be better off avoiding giving an exact spec list. Give SD a tone description to aim for and let them figure out the specs. Otherwise you're just constraining what they can accomplish.
Double-screw is fine as a spec to give because it impacts the final usage to some extent. Wire gauge is way too much IMO - let them use what they think will work best.
It also doesn't necessarily need to be asymmetric coils. You could have a tap on both coils.
Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk
I think we'd be better off avoiding giving an exact spec list. Give SD a tone description to aim for and let them figure out the specs. Otherwise you're just constraining what they can accomplish.
Double-screw is fine as a spec to give because it impacts the final usage to some extent. Wire gauge is way too much IMO - let them use what they think will work best.
It also doesn't necessarily need to be asymmetric coils. You could have a tap on both coils.
Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
I'd say asking the Custom Shop to look into a tappable design with two different wiring gauges would be worth doing. That way you could tap the pickup in a way that actually changes the tone in a way other than losing bass and volume.
I'd say making both of the coils tappable would actually detract from this design. If you only tapped one coil you could have three main tones to focus on: series, series tapped, and the split tone on the untapped coil. If you had to worry about having a good tapped single coil as well as a good double tapped split tone, it would be too difficult to balance the winding to make all 5 tones sound good. It would also require 6 conductors at least, whereas my three sounds could be done with 4.
I'd say asking the Custom Shop to look into a tappable design with two different wiring gauges would be worth doing. That way you could tap the pickup in a way that actually changes the tone in a way other than losing bass and volume.
I'd say making both of the coils tappable would actually detract from this design. If you only tapped one coil you could have three main tones to focus on: series, series tapped, and the split tone on the untapped coil. If you had to worry about having a good tapped single coil as well as a good double tapped split tone, it would be too difficult to balance the winding to make all 5 tones sound good. It would also require 6 conductors at least, whereas my three sounds could be done with 4.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
In my idea, there's no point in using two different wires on the hotter coil. No need for the tapped PAF territory humbucker to be exactly like a PAF. Fun ideas that should be tried, however.
I think it's a good idea to base it on the '59/C Hybrid. It'd be a familiar and well loved hit at full output, and all they'd have to do would be to add a tap to the hotter coil. Very little R&D or theorizing. You already know the full output pickup works, sounds good, and is beloved. You – meaning SD – just need to figure out where the tap goes to get the pickup down to '59 or Jazz Model output with the Custom's thinner wire. Winding it first as a PAF with 42 gauge (which is already going to be a pretty full coil), and then adding thinner wire for the boost just seems overly complicated, for what benefit? Having exactly a PAF in the lower output version? I'd rather have exactly a '59/C on top, and something new/unique on the bottom, than have exactly a PAF on the bottom, and something new/unique on top.
Some people will view it as a low output humbucker with an optional boost, and some people will view it as a medium output humbucker with an optional cut. Either way, the concept is very simple to implement by the factory, and and very easy to digest/understand by users/shoppers. I think it'd be extremely useful, and a big hit.
The trick is figuring out the cool wiring for it. For me, that's being able to have the following options for the pickup, without too much switching confusion:
1. Series full ('59/C exactly)
2. Series tapped (Custom coil tapped)
3. Split to full Custom coil
Split to tapped Custom coil would obviously become available if you were to wire it for the above using two separate switches. However, I don't think it would be too useful for most people to have a, let's say, 4K Custom coil alone. Maybe, though.
That being said, I wouldn't use 3 too much, so I'd be very happy with only having 1 and 2.
In my idea, there's no point in using two different wires on the hotter coil. No need for the tapped PAF territory humbucker to be exactly like a PAF. Fun ideas that should be tried, however.
I think it's a good idea to base it on the '59/C Hybrid. It'd be a familiar and well loved hit at full output, and all they'd have to do would be to add a tap to the hotter coil. Very little R&D or theorizing. You already know the full output pickup works, sounds good, and is beloved. You – meaning SD – just need to figure out where the tap goes to get the pickup down to '59 or Jazz Model output with the Custom's thinner wire. Winding it first as a PAF with 42 gauge (which is already going to be a pretty full coil), and then adding thinner wire for the boost just seems overly complicated, for what benefit? Having exactly a PAF in the lower output version? I'd rather have exactly a '59/C on top, and something new/unique on the bottom, than have exactly a PAF on the bottom, and something new/unique on top.
Some people will view it as a low output humbucker with an optional boost, and some people will view it as a medium output humbucker with an optional cut. Either way, the concept is very simple to implement by the factory, and and very easy to digest/understand by users/shoppers. I think it'd be extremely useful, and a big hit.
The trick is figuring out the cool wiring for it. For me, that's being able to have the following options for the pickup, without too much switching confusion:
1. Series full ('59/C exactly)
2. Series tapped (Custom coil tapped)
3. Split to full Custom coil
Split to tapped Custom coil would obviously become available if you were to wire it for the above using two separate switches. However, I don't think it would be too useful for most people to have a, let's say, 4K Custom coil alone. Maybe, though.
That being said, I wouldn't use 3 too much, so I'd be very happy with only having 1 and 2.
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dr.barlo
New member
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
Not all the tones or modes need to sound good. I think that is simply not feasible.
Just the basic two. Say a 6K #42 strat/tele kinda mode and 7.75K #42 PAF kinda tone in the neck and 6.5K #42 bridge strat/tele kind of mode along with the 9K #42 hot PAF kinda tone. Those of us who have used them buckers for quite a while can foresee what I am talking about, I think. And that still leaves a lot of freedom to MJ provided that it is feasible. How to connect the conductor wires is no problem and the taps can be connected inside the pickup so we'd have again 4c wires. Even 3 in fact. 1 for the ground, 1 for the 6K mode and 1 for the PAF mode. If it could be not done parallel so what... I don't wanna deal with a pickup that has 6 or 8 wires! What matters with this one is the 6K strat/tele mode and the PAF mode.
That's what I'd be interested in if I were to go to the custom shop with an idea.
Meanwhile, I also the other suggestion is also mighty cool. 59/Custom hybrid with the 59 side tapped. #42 (the regular 59 wire) sorta continued with the #43 wire (the custom wire) to some specs. Personally, I would be way more interested if the design were to be in a PATB kinda pickup. But that's me. I did a lot of hybrids way back when and I am not much of a fan of the 59/Custom hybrid.
B
Not all the tones or modes need to sound good. I think that is simply not feasible.
Just the basic two. Say a 6K #42 strat/tele kinda mode and 7.75K #42 PAF kinda tone in the neck and 6.5K #42 bridge strat/tele kind of mode along with the 9K #42 hot PAF kinda tone. Those of us who have used them buckers for quite a while can foresee what I am talking about, I think. And that still leaves a lot of freedom to MJ provided that it is feasible. How to connect the conductor wires is no problem and the taps can be connected inside the pickup so we'd have again 4c wires. Even 3 in fact. 1 for the ground, 1 for the 6K mode and 1 for the PAF mode. If it could be not done parallel so what... I don't wanna deal with a pickup that has 6 or 8 wires! What matters with this one is the 6K strat/tele mode and the PAF mode.
That's what I'd be interested in if I were to go to the custom shop with an idea.
Meanwhile, I also the other suggestion is also mighty cool. 59/Custom hybrid with the 59 side tapped. #42 (the regular 59 wire) sorta continued with the #43 wire (the custom wire) to some specs. Personally, I would be way more interested if the design were to be in a PATB kinda pickup. But that's me. I did a lot of hybrids way back when and I am not much of a fan of the 59/Custom hybrid.
B
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Forum Pickup Poll #2: Everything Else
If that's the case would we really want to waste an opportunity of a new forum pup to simply add a singular new while to a pickup that's been around for a decade?
If the CS does approve this, I think we should use it to make something new and exciting.
If that's the case would we really want to waste an opportunity of a new forum pup to simply add a singular new while to a pickup that's been around for a decade?
If the CS does approve this, I think we should use it to make something new and exciting.
