FRFR

[Sirion]

So, I am getting a 2x12 modelled on the old stereo Rockman cabs made, and these are to be used for an upcoming FRFR rig. I am going to need two 12" speakers in it, and if possible I would like to go with one of Celestion's offerings. As it happens, Celestion have two FRFR 12" offerings made specifically for guitar rigs.

https://celestion.com/product/f12m-150-triple-cone/
https://celestion.com/product/f12-x200/

Do any of you have experience with either? Would there be good reason to choose one over the other? I was surprised to see that they seem to go for two entirely different solutions: the 150 has several superimposed cones, but the 200 seems to get a flatter response altogether (although the difference is primarily in the extreme top end, which I don't think would matter much for guitar).

 

[Securb]

I was very interested in those speakers when they came out. However, I have never played or heard them.

You might want to also look at the Eminence Wheelhouse speakers. I have a 2x12 set that sounds amazing with my Marshall and Roland. It also looks like they just price-dropped them.

https://eminence.com/products/wheelhouse_150

 

[Sirion]

I'll look out for them! Eminences have a tendency of being pricier than Celestion in Europe, but there is certainly no harm in having a gander.

 

[devastone]

The Eminence isn't a FR speaker, it is a normal guitar speaker that starts rolling off ar ~3.5k, I don't think that's what you want.

I haven't tried the Celestions, I kinda like the idea of a regular looking cab that is FR though, I just use a set of JBL EON 610s when I need a FRFR. Or, depending on the situation, I turn off the cab sims on the 1/4" outs and run through an ISP power amp and normal guitar cab.

What is your full setup for this gig?

 

[Sirion]

After five years of bumping the Rockman thread I decided that it was time to actually take action and get the thing. Basically it will be a small rack rig with a late-era Sustainor and a TC Electronic G-System going into a non-descript power amp (the current pick: https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/LD-Systems-XS-400-Class-D-2-x-200-W-4-Ohm/art-PAH0021801-000). The whole thing will be capped off by a stereo 2x12 in the style of Rockman's rare-as-hens'-teeth combos and the GK 250ML series, which both were based around a chorus section.


The cabinet does, if not lock, then at least suggest a particular sonic paradigm, but I hope that the cabinet could be used with a modelling rig if I choose to pursue that route in the future.

 

[Sirion]

(To preëmpt any comments: Rockman rigs were made with FRFR speakers in mind, much like modern modellers.)

 

[devastone]

Sounds cool! I had some Rockman modules back in the day, don't remember what I was running them through. I really liked the distortion at first but seems like it got old to me after a while, but it has been decades.

I think either of the Celestions would work well, but unfortunately I don't have any experience with either.

 

[LLL]

So, I am getting a 2x12 modelled on the old stereo Rockman cabs made, and these are to be used for an upcoming FRFR rig. I am going to need two 12" speakers in it, and if possible I would like to go with one of Celestion's offerings. As it happens, Celestion have two FRFR 12" offerings made specifically for guitar rigs.

https://celestion.com/product/f12m-150-triple-cone/
https://celestion.com/product/f12-x200/

Do any of you have experience with either? Would there be good reason to choose one over the other? I was surprised to see that they seem to go for two entirely different solutions: the 150 has several superimposed cones, but the 200 seems to get a flatter response altogether (although the difference is primarily in the extreme top end, which I don't think would matter much for guitar).

As someone who has decades of Rockman experience as well as speaker iR experience etc...

I've researched this myself. Not necessarily in a Rockman context (although could be, as I have 5 Rockmodules & Rockman X100b), but a Two Notes Torpedo CAB M context

The bottom line is both rigs need full range speakers to be effective if you are playing live.

You want the F12-x200's. I have heard the F12m-150's fare poorly in comparison.

Guys running the Kemper and AXEFX units are using these to great effect (which is no different FRFR scenario than Rockman or the like)

IIRC, Celestion even gives a cab build spec if you want to build a cab that will perfectly compliment the F12-x200 speakers.

The F12-x200 speaker has been on my Amazon wishlist for future consideration.

 

[LLL]

The Eminence isn't a FR speaker, it is a normal guitar speaker that starts rolling off ar ~3.5k, I don't think that's what you want.

^ what this guy says.

People giving advice here need to know and understand what "FR" speaker actually means before typing.

As devastone insinuates, Sirion needs a full range speaker, not a guitar speaker.

 

[LLL]

Here you go:

 

[Sirion]

Here you go:

I was just watching that video earlier today. I think I am going to go with the X200s, though I'll shop around for opinions for some time still. I really liked the idea of nested cones, but it sounds like the raison d'etre of the triple-cone is that the X200 is too large for some cabinets.

I'm actually in the process of getting a specially made cabinet for this project. It will basically be the a version of the Rockman XP 2x12 combo, but without a compartment for the amp itself.


These are made by Vincent Riso of RMC Rackmount Concepts, who also makes cabinets for Tom Scholtz. Vanity? Certainly, but honestly speaking it won't really cost much more than, say, getting a Marshall 2x12 and replacing the speakers.

 

[LLL]

I was just watching that video earlier today. I think I am going to go with the X200s, though I'll shop around for opinions for some time still. I really liked the idea of nested cones, but it sounds like the raison d'etre of the triple-cone is that the X200 is too large for some cabinets.

I'm actually in the process of getting a specially made cabinet for this project. It will basically be the a version of the Rockman XP 2x12 combo, but without a compartment for the amp itself.


These are made by Vincent Riso of RMC Rackmount Concepts, who also makes cabinets for Tom Scholtz. Vanity? Certainly, but honestly speaking it won't really cost much more than, say, getting a Marshall 2x12 and replacing the speakers.

Sounds good... and the dude makes cabs for the Scholzman himself. Cool "provenance" there.

I wouldn't concern yourself with "nested cones" or any of that jive... does the speaker do it's job, and well? That's what matters most.

 

[Sirion]

Absolutely! One of the reasons for asking about these things is to gauge whether ideas are just cool or if they are actually beneficial.

 

[LLL]

Absolutely! One of the reasons for asking about these things is to gauge whether ideas are just cool or if they are actually beneficial.

You're asking the same thing numerous Kemper and AXEFX dudes have been asking in recent years - so, very much a beneficial idea.

If and when I decide to go FRFR (I use ADA / Alesis rackmount gear live currently), that's why those F12-fx200 speakers are in my Amazon wishlist.

 

[Sirion]

If and when I decide to go FRFR (I use ADA / Alesis rackmount gear live currently), that's why those F12-fx200 speakers are in my Amazon wishlist.

If and when I get them I'll be sure to post my thoughts!

 

[Ewizard]

What level of " FRFR " are you trying to achieve? Are you literally looking only for a 12" speaker replacement that is sort of full range, or are you looking for a full-on PA speaker that is exactly FRFR?

The problem with 12" full range speakers that are NOT coaxial or have a separate compression driver is that they will never truly achieve linear frequency response.

The term FRFR is a Marketing term used to MARKET to guitarists. FRFR is literally nothing more than a PA speaker network placed inside of a normal guitar cab and sold for more money than it is worth. I.E. if you put your QSC K10 in a box that looked like a guitar cabinet, nobody would be the wiser and it would sound like a K10.

Single speakers that try and emulate " full range " ALWAYS have some anomaly that makes their frequency response uneven and weird. Truly coaxial speakers are of course an exception. A coaxial speaker is of course not a single element trying to do the work that 2 or three elements would properly do.

The long and short is that for a little more money, you can buy an ACTUAL speaker that is more linear in response, produces more output, and will sound better.

 

[Sirion]

What level of " FRFR " are you trying to achieve? Are you literally looking only for a 12" speaker replacement that is sort of full range, or are you looking for a full-on PA speaker that is exactly FRFR?

The problem with 12" full range speakers that are NOT coaxial or have a separate compression driver is that they will never truly achieve linear frequency response.

The term FRFR is a Marketing term used to MARKET to guitarists. FRFR is literally nothing more than a PA speaker network placed inside of a normal guitar cab and sold for more money than it is worth. I.E. if you put your QSC K10 in a box that looked like a guitar cabinet, nobody would be the wiser and it would sound like a K10.

Single speakers that try and emulate " full range " ALWAYS have some anomaly that makes their frequency response uneven and weird. Truly coaxial speakers are of course an exception. A coaxial speaker is of course not a single element trying to do the work that 2 or three elements would properly do.

The long and short is that for a little more money, you can buy an ACTUAL speaker that is more linear in response, produces more output, and will sound better.

Sure, I'm all for getting it right the first time around. i'm not sure what to add that I haven't already. As mentioned, this is going specifically into a 2x12 cabinet, which is going to be used exclusively for guitar duty. Its purpose is to provide stage sound for said Rockman-based rig – though it work equally well with any modern modeller.

Do you have any recommendations for something that would work better for this purpose?

 

[Ewizard]

Without retrofitting, making it difficult or not expensive.....No, I don't have an answer.

I was really just pointing out that " full range " 12" speakers are more or less a HUGE compromise over true sound quality. It is an area where what you spend will reflect greatly on the quality of sound.

Ideally, so you don't get sucked into the whole FRFR marketing term, you would just buy and use a PA speaker of your choice. EV, QSC, JBL, Yamaha, and several other vendors have affordable speakers that will be a massive improvement in both sound quality and output over that of any single full-range speaker.

 

[beaubrummels]

The Celestion 150 has a pretty impressive frequency response. It's odd there are folks preferring the 200 when it has a big drop at 5k, but maybe that is what the doctor ordered for guitar?

Celestion 150

Celestion 200

 

[Ewizard]

The usable bandwidth of the 150 is pretty good considering, but it is still only good up to 12khz. While that may be more than high enough for a guitar, it is technically missing out on the last octave; really only meaning that it isn't actually FRFR. I would say that from an objective standpoint for the build he is going for, it is probably the best option, but then the sound he creates with that speaker will truly only work for that speaker. As soon as he goes into a real PA system, that last 10Khz will show up in the model.

With nearly a 5db boost from 1khz up to 12khz, if he ducks the HF down to compensate, a basic PA system will have his amp sounding fairly dark comparatively. The model 200 is a little more linear with the exception of that node at 5.5khz. Again, perhaps not a real issue, but very dependent upon several factors of course.