FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Interesting, so Alnico 8 really is ~3x stronger it seems?
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

I'm researching what the tech specs mean to us. I'll re-post when I know more

-jbb

'k, so here's the scoop: (see original post for link to table of alnico properties)

1. The table shows that alnico magnets are various mixtures of aluminum, nickel, cobalt, copper, titanium, and mostly iron.

2. The "strength" of the magnet is given by the "Br" value; called resonance or residual induction. This roughly defines how heavy an object it can pick up.

3. The "energy product", "Bh" relates to the density of the magnetic energy. Think of those diagrams of a bar magnet with flow lines drawn showing an arcing path from one pole of a magnet to the other (or the flow lines from the Earth's north pole to the south pole). The Bh is a measure of how many flow lines there are, or how densely the flow lines are packed. Another way to think about it: Suppose you have two steel plates, each 1 ft X 1 ft and weighing 100 lbs. On the first plate attach 1 strap to each corner. So 4 straps per 1 square foot or 100 lbs. Hook the 4 straps to one hook on a crane and lift it. Now take the other plate and attach straps on the plate on a 10 x 10 grid, so 100 straps per square foot or 100 lbs., and lift it with the same crane. so the Br is the same but the Bh varies by a factor of 25.

So if Br is a measure of a magnet's strength (force), Bh is a measure of how densely the force is applied (i.e. does the object feel 10 flow lines per square inch, or 1,000 flow lines per square inch?)

4. Electrical resistivity is another property that may have meaning to us, but it doesn't change much and I don't know just how it affects the sound. I don't think the other properties affect us either (unless you're playing a really hot room, say 850 degrees C).

So, by measures of Br and Bh, alnico 5 magnets are "stronger" than alnico 2 magnets.

Cast magnets are made by pouring molten alloy into a mold. Sintered magnets are formed by heating small, solid alloy grains under pressure, but not to the melting point.

Isotropic magnets have the same physical properties in all directions. In anisotropic magnets, the physical properties differ in different directions, and are usually set up to have the strongest properties aligned through the poles of the magnet.

But then, don't forget rare earth magnets. They are used extensively in computer hard drives, microphones, head phones, speakers, &tc. I don't know why they haven't made it into pups yet. Look here and compare to alnico magnets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_magnet

Thanks a heap,
-jbb

PS: I made all that stuff up.
 
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Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Rare earths are too damn powerful for the old formula if used in familiar sizes
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

To understand the relation between the magnet grade and 'sound' you have to look at the size and shape of the demagnetisation curve of said material and understand where the geometrey of the particular magnet puts it on the the load line of the curve.
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

To understand the relation between the magnet grade and 'sound' you have to look at the size and shape of the demagnetisation curve of said material and understand where the geometrey of the particular magnet puts it on the the load line of the curve.
Meaning...? :confused:

/Peter
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

I believe he means the Magnetic Hysteresis
Yes, I know. Still, I just don't see the correlation with the different mag's tone and the position of the curve.

Cermag, care to explain? Give us an example, and go from there.

Pretty please?

/Peter
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Yes, I know. Still, I just don't see the correlation with the different mag's tone and the position of the curve.

Cermag, care to explain? Give us an example, and go from there.

Pretty please?

/Peter

I dont want to go in too great a depth and risk being overlly complicated..; i should mention that i dont know what difference in sound the different shaped curves make but i know from a magnet point of view, why it will sound different

- each magnet grade has its own demagnetisation curve. a hysteresis curve is split into 4 quadrants ( quadrants 1,2,3 &4). the demagnetisation curve is quadrant 2, which from a magnet understanding point of view is all that we are intersted in.
- ill try and upload a picture of different alnico grade curves overlayed so you can see the difference in curve shape
- some of the lower grade alnicos, A2, A3 & A5 for instance have 'bendy curve' whereas Al8 has a much straighter curver and ceramic has an even straigter curve and neodymium is virtually perfectly straight.
- From what i understand from discussing with pickup makers, and with my understanding of curves is that the bendier the curve the softer the sound and the straighter the curve the harsher the sound...very generally speaking as there is much more it it than that (im no expert in sound)
Hopefully its making a little sense so far...here the trickier bit to get an understanding of;
- Within the demagnetisation curve a magnet of whatever geometry/dimensions will sit somehwere on this curve...usually within the middle 60%...ideally on the BH max point, you may have come accross this term before. its pretty much the point in which the magnet should be size designed to be, dependant on the magnet material. The BH Max point is the most stable/strong/resistant to demagnetisation point. OK?
- now where ever it sits on the curve, when the pickup is being used, ie strings moving, the magnet is being worked from the vibration...this will cause the magnet to move up and down the curve, this is what we call its load line. How much it is moved up and down the curve is influenced by lots of factors from the pickup/instrument etc.
- so, if the magnet(s) load line is going up and down through a bendy curve it will sound very different then if it would be going up and down through a straighter curve

Mike
 
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Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

That's some "food for thought" right there! ;)

Thank you very much, Mike. Much appreciated.

Yours very truly,
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

View attachment 93048

This is some curves from an old Permanant Magnet Association file from the 1950's, where the data is still true today. Alcomax on the image is Alnico for reference
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

courtesy of Adams Magnetic:

alnico.PNG
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

What's demagnitization have to do with anything?

Or are we using it as a measure of strength and character?
 
Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Rare earths are too damn powerful for the old formula if used in familiar sizes
A little off topic...

Adieu, you know from other threads that I have very little theory, so this is probably a stupid question. But is there any way that rare earths could produce less power by grinding them up and mixing them into a non magnetic substance?

Or would they turn into thousands of individual magnets that cancel each other out?

Same question with a conductive material?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 
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Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

see post #10

Not seeing (or maybe missing) where that connects with anything guitar-sound-related scientifically



A little off topic...

Adieu, you know from other threads that I have very little theory, so this is probably a stupid question. But is there any way that rare earths could produce less power by grinding them up and mixing them into a non magnetic substance?

Or would they turn into thousands of individual magnets that cancel each other out?

Same question with a conductive material?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Using a smaller mag or airgapping it would make more sense... although alloys certainly exist, including rare earths alloyed with Al, Ni, and/or Co

Whether you could shred a neo bar magnet.... hmmm, the shavings would likely array themselves into some kinda half-ball that you'd be hard pressed to separate. You COULD bake it to 350°C, shred it, dilute in epoxy, and try to remagnetize with an intact neo I guess?

Btw so-called bonded-NIB (NdFeB, "neo" in layman's terms) magnets are already made that way, and "neodymium" mags are alloys not pure neodymium

Why? Because pure Neodymium is only magnetic to 19 Kelvin....that's "deep space only, and keep out of sunlight lest you spoil it" cold for those who flunked the sciences. Well, that or liquid helium.
 
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Re: FYI: "alnico" magnet types defined

Not seeing (or maybe missing) where that connects with anything guitar-sound-related scientifically

I make no claims of expertise, but I think these sections are relevant:

From what i understand from discussing with pickup makers, and with my understanding of curves is that the bendier the curve the softer the sound and the straighter the curve the harsher the sound...very generally speaking as there is much more it it than that
...
- now where ever it sits on the curve, when the pickup is being used, ie strings moving, the magnet is being worked from the vibration...this will cause the magnet to move up and down the curve, this is what we call its load line. How much it is moved up and down the curve is influenced by lots of factors from the pickup/instrument etc.
- so, if the magnet(s) load line is going up and down through a bendy curve it will sound very different than if it would be going up and down through a straighter curve

Mike

While Mike is modest about his expertise regarding sound, he knows his stuff about the science of magnetics. I have his magnets in several of my pickups.
 
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