Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

[Mark Abbott]

I've been wondering about the differences between the classics 50's pickups and the 70's pickups.

Most people will know both pickups used A5 magnets and the coils differed. The 50's coils were formvar wire measuring between 5.5K and 6.5K, the 70's pickups used enamel wire (P.E.) which measured around 5.5K.

You'd think the 70's pickups would be weaker than the 50's ones but they aren't.

The P.E. wire makes pickups sound duller than the 50's pickups wound with formvar wire but I never thought real 70's pickups were overly dull.

Here is the question were the magnets on the 70's guitars charged higher than the 50's magnets to get additional brightness?

Thanks for reading my thread. Look forward to your reply.

Regards

Mark

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

Is this '50's pickups in a 50's/60's guitar vs 70's in a 70's guitar......played right next to each other on the same rig.
And are you comparing strength of output NOW, as in almost 60 years after the mag was charged in some cases. Even in the 70's the 50's were 20 years old.

There's much more to the signal than just the pickup. You have an amp and speaker in there too, each with a very nonlinear frequency response.

plus K doesn't = output. I've got a range of PAF clones with almost 1k difference in K, and the high K ones aren't the strongest nor are the lowest K ones the weakest. Even swapping the same pickups between guitars I've ended up with wildly different distances from the strings for the best tonal response.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

I've been wondering about the differences between the classics 50's pickups and the 70's pickups.

Most people will know both pickups used A5 magnets and the coils differed. The 50's coils were formvar wire measuring between 5.5K and 6.5K, the 70's pickups used enamel wire (P.E.) which measured around 5.5K.

You'd think the 70's pickups would be weaker than the 50's ones but they aren't.

The P.E. wire makes pickups sound duller than the 50's pickups wound with formvar wire but I never thought real 70's pickups were overly dull.

Here is the question were the magnets on the 70's guitars charged higher than the 50's magnets to get additional brightness?

Thanks for reading my thread. Look forward to your reply.

Regards

Mark

I'll add that there is no convincing evidence that the enamel produces a sound different from formvar, all other things being equal.

When you say "You'd think the 70's pickups would be weaker than the 50's ones but they aren't.", what do you base that upon?

As far as resistance = output, if you consider output to be a product of the inductance, as opposed to some perceived sense of loudness, they should track pretty closely. I've been meaning to gather some data and see how much they really deviate. After all, you have a fixed bobbin shape with a fixed core. I see now great reason why inductance shouldn't track DC resistance with vintage style Strat pickups, especially if you're talking about a difference of 1k ohms. PAFs are more complex than Strat pickups, so I wouldn't expect them to be as consistent in that regard.

 

[BRHGM]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

Fender changed the way they made pickups many times in those eras. The Broadcaster bridge was fairly hot at one point. some of the 1963 Strat pickups were a little hotter than normal. They also didn't strictly use just one type of wire and suddenly switch, it was what ever they could get from Gavitt Cable and Wire that met their specs. Leo built his guitars at a specific cost and profit margin. Pickups were not wound to the same exacting turns and resistance as they are today. They also used a variety of magnets, usually A5, but sometime A3 in the early years. It was not uncommon as David Lindley will attest to recharge and rewind 1950s Strat pickups in the 1970s.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

It would cool if they marketed them as "50's Hot" or "50's Cool" to reflect the fact that for a given period, the winds were all over the place, but the marketers would rather have us believe that there is an ideal pickup for a given time period.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

You might run across a 50's Fender that had the mags recharged by somebody. And you might run across a 70's Fender where the guitar was sitting a little too close to a speaker mag or something. Any Alnico mag can be gaussed or degaussed and the Alnico 5/4/3/2/etc formula can also vary slightly from company to company and era to era. And you have the fact that just as no 2 guitar or mics or amps are alike, no 2 pickups -- even right next to each other on the assembly line -- are alike.

With that in mind, it's hard to pin down a pattern that 50's or 70's Fender pu's are stronger or weaker.

 

[Mark Abbott]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

Okay, I suppose what I'm getting at, it the extent to which the 70's pickups were voiced.

As mentioned I've heard plenty about the coil, but precious little about how the magnets were magnetised. Were the magnets in the 70's magnetised differently than the 50's?

Did the charge vary from 50's pickups?

Regards

Mark

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

But thats just the thing, there is no way of knowing.
Not only have compositions and purity of metals changed (yes, old mags are not like the generic current ones), but the formulation of a grade of alnico has a range. So you do get different possible max gauss levels if they were indeed both charged to their limit.

Then, (and yet again) you say the pickups are voiced differently. But to make the comparison the 50's pickups had to be 20years+ old before the 70's ones were even invented. So yet again, even in the 70's if they'd compared the two and decided the voice was different you are not sure what the 50's pickup had been through in its life before it got to that comparison point.

Then you have the wind.....which is by far the more important element. Those who actually have experience with winding will tell you this is by far the most important element in pickup voicing. These guys also have the hands on experience to tell you that the coating of the various insulating materials does indeed make a difference - the thickness of the coating for one. Naturally the same turns will take up more space on the bobbin.

In all the strat pickups I've had, and the mag swapping I've done I'm yet to find a difference in mags that gets close in any way to the difference in wind.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

i would assume that by the 70's fender had a consistent powerful way of charging magnets quickly. no idea how they did it in the 50's

 

[thanaton]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

Okay, I suppose what I'm getting at, it the extent to which the 70's pickups were voiced.

I highly doubt they were doing any sort of tone shaping. People weren't really tone snobs back then. The first replacement pickups were mostly intended to get amps to distort more easily. The cork sniffing over lower output pickups came some time after that.

As mentioned I've heard plenty about the coil, but precious little about how the magnets were magnetised. Were the magnets in the 70's magnetised differently than the 50's?

Did the charge vary from 50's pickups?

It's rather hard to under charge AlNiCo, even on purpose. In order to charge the AlNiCo at all, it has to be placed into a flux field that exceeds the coercive force of the AlNiCo, and then the maximum residual flux density it will retain is called the BrMax. The amount of "play" between where the AlNiCo will hold a permanent charge, and max out, is narrow, so if the magnet is subject the a field strong enough to magnetize it, it is also likely that the AlNiCo has his its BrMax as well.

Another reason you can be sure that they have always sought to fully charge AlNiCo is because it's long been known that undercharged AlNiCo will lose it's charge more rapidly than a fully charged AlNiCo, but the flux reinforces itself. That's why some pickup designs have a steel "keeper" at the end of the magnet, it's supposed to help the AlNiCo retain it's flux.

 

[Mark Abbott]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

This reply isn't for Thanaton or Zhang. ��

People are alluding to the magnets losing charge, I've heard that magnets losing charge under normal conditions doesn't happen but they can lose charge when subject to excessive heat, a strong magnet field or being knocked around.

Mind you I don't remember where I read that about magnets aging?

Here is a link that states much the same.

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=507

Getting back on topic if the pickups haven't been knocked around or subjected magnetic fields then one could compare a 50's pickup to a 70's pickup. The pickup manufacturing did change as Fender went from Formvar to PE and from hand wound to machine wound. The edges of the magnets weren't beveled either, there was significant change but did the the change include the magnets?

How does magnetic charge effect the timbre of the pickup?

If so how extreme or subtle does the difference in charge have to be to hear a change in timbre?

Thanks for your interest and replies.

Regards

Mark

 

[thanaton]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

How does magnetic charge effect the timbre of the pickup?

If so how extreme or subtle does the difference in charge have to be to hear a change in timbre?

Thanks for your interest and replies.

Regards

Mark

I can tell you that nobody knows for sure, except for possibly a few German physicists, and I'm not even joking when I say that. People will give you opinions, but you will not get a scientific explanation.

BTW, let me know if you speak German.

 

[Mark Abbott]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

No German unfortunately. As you'd imagine I'm big on quantifying things.

Thanks for your assistance.

Regards

Mark

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

I can tell you that nobody knows for sure, except for possibly a few German physicists, and I'm not even joking when I say that. BTW, let me know if you speak German.

I speak German.

What do your need to get translated?

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

Strangest replies in a thread ever...

To the OP you have taken a lot of things and stated them as fact...for example the DC resistance of pickups from various eras.

All these things varied a good bit and as we all know the charge of an alnico magnet can and will change over time based on various things from simple age to what the magnet has endured from it's surroundings.

I don't know that there is a great answer to your question because to be honest I'd bet that magnetic charge varied from pickup to pickup in any given day so comparing pickups from over 2 decades apart would show even more variance and then add to that you have to measure those differences on magnets that are in some cases 4 decades old to as much as 60 decades old...

I just don't know there is a way to have a real answer unless you could find Fender documentation saying that in "X" year the "standard" was this much and remained that until the "standard" changed again in some other year...

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

You can degauss a pickup magnet in a pickup whilst its in the guitar and listen to what happens as you do so. It is a bit different from mag to mag as to the effects. Not done it on an A5 so couldn't tell you what happens there.

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

The 50s magnets had beveled edges, the 70s did not. Perhaps this affects the magnetic field produced?

 

[Mark Abbott]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

The guy who invented fire.

70's pickups were machine wound there DC resistance is similar from my experience.

The pickups in my 82 Strat were all 5.5K (dead on), a friend's 76 Strat has grey back pickups which also measure 5.5K.

Mojotone's Blackie pickups are 5.6K which are in the 5.5K ballpark.

Regards

Mark

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

I've been wondering about the differences between the classics 50's pickups and the 70's pickups.

Here you can see some data.

http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/pickup_specs.htm

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gauss strength of 50's Strat magnets versus 70's Strat magnets?

^ edit - ah Pepe got the K info I was thinking of while I was typing.

MA - but even with machine wound pickups you have a lot of variance. Simply saying 'I have 3 pickups and they measure the same, therefore all multiple hundred thousand pickups ever produced must be the same' is a stretch no one in their right mind would ever make.
Not only does wire vary in ohms/foot within spools, but as tolerance got better it changed fullstop. There is usually a 10% tolerance in K for even current pickup readings wound by computer controlled tension and turn #.

Even within the 50's you see anything from 5.5k to 6k. The 60's went to 6.3 to 6.4k before going back down to mid 5's.....and this is averages not individual pickups.

And using a modern clone as a gauge of 50's pickups is silly. They wind for comparable tone/feel using modern materials. Its well documented that vintage magnets and wire produce different results, so no comparison is possible.