Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

[paspallum]

Hi guys
Here's my story.

I was in the local guitar store (here in New Zealand) and I take hold of this brand new Gibson (custom shop) custom Les Paul 'Black Beauty'.

Now this thing played and sounded so good it was un-believeable.
Un-plugged it was nice and solid sounding, it sounded well made... but to plug it in.. that is when the magic started. TONE TONE TONE.... clean, crunch or distortion it was warm and clear and articulate.

So... I proceeded to plug in every set neck twin humbucker guitar in the shop to get comparisons.. schecters, Ibanez, Epiphones, Yammaha's and Yes... even other models of USA Gibson Les Pauls...

If the Gibson Custom shop guitar was an 11 out of 10 (and it was!) the next best was a 5 out of 10... most of them were barely a 2 or 3.

The price? Well the tag said $6999 (this is New Zealand dollars) This is exactly $5285 US dollars....

So anyway I took note of the guitars exact model number and checked it out online.. the pickups in it were Gibson 490 Alnico (Neck) and Alnico 498 (bridge) these pickups alone cost only US$90 each.

So (the story goes on)
I just bought a Japanese domestic stock Epiphone Les paul Custom 'Black Beauty'. This guitar cost me less than 20% of the price of the USA Gibson.
It is as well made (if not better) is finished in Nitro laquer and has the proper GIBSON shaped headstock.

Note: This guitar is finer made than the production USA Gibsons and is as well made as the Custom shop model.. although sure... the body will be three pieces of Mahogany instead of one piece of quartersawn...and the electronics will be on the cheap side.

How does my Jap LP sound? Unplugged it sounds amazing... such a perfect neck... excellant frets and a really lively tone. NOTHING like a Korean made LP

BUT... the pickups SUCK (I did expect this) They are weak, thin, gutless and not at all punchy... I guess they have to cut costs somewhere.

I loved the sound of the Gibson Alnico 490 and 498 (in the Gibson Custom shop LP) so much that I'm thinking of putting them in my Epiphone LP.

Why did I like them? I loved how they had a nice harmonic obevrtone and a bit of sweet controlled feedback... even at low volumes with minimal drive applied.. they are not wax potted (I guess that helps get those overtones I like)

Anyone want to chip in and tell me that I'm on the right track... or tell me of another pickup that will sound like a Gibson Alnico 490?? (or better)

Paspallum

 

[Sludgenutz]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Epi LP's are usually Korean, or Chinese, unless it an "Elitist" series model, which are made in Japan, using USA electronics and pickups.

The 490R sounds far better with minimum amounts of drive and gain. Gibson 490R pickups turn muddy, and undefined beyond jazzy/bluesy rythm playing.

I have a four wire, aftermarket Gibson 490R, and the only way I can stand it, is soldered in as parallel humbucker. The output is lower, but it least the tone is manageable.

BTW, I am not totally down on the 490R. It is rich and thick! I think that people notice I don't use Duncans, and I have not since the 1980's. This place and people are tops all around.

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Gibson Les Paul Custom Historic Collection 1957 Black Beauty DOES NOT use 490R/498T pickups. It uses Burstbucker 1/Burstbucker 2 combo. take a look here:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/products/lespauls/573pu/1957Custom3PU.html
This is the model that you played in the shop.

The "regular" Les Paul Custom that uses the 490R/498T combo is a totally different model:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/products/lespauls/lpcustom/LPCustom.html

The most important differences include:
Maple top instead of a mahogany top (a huge difference)
Pickups: 490R/498T instead of BurstBuckers 1/2 (pre-2003 BB's have 57Classics)
Heavy cast zinc stopbar instead of a lightweight aluminium one (pre-2001 BB's have a zinc stopbar, too)
Weight relieved back instead of a solid one
Heavy tulip tuners instead of light Kluson type ones (pre-2007 BB's have Grovers that are heavy too)
Nashville tune-o-matic bridge instead of an ABR-1 bridge
Short neck tenon instead of a long one.
Different frets (BB's have wide and low frets)
White binding vs. Aged cream binding (the most visually noticeable difference)
300K controls vs. 500K controls (not sure about that).

And, finally, the Black Beauty costs $1000 more. The MF prices are $3400 for a regular Custom and $4400 for a Black Beauty.

Hope this helps. I myself was also unaware of the differences between those two models. I also considered buying 490R/498T to nail the sounds of the guitarists that I liked (mostly Jerry Cantrell). I tried them in a shop and was completely disappointed. Then I found out that JC used not a LPC but a 1957 reissue BB and that they are very different.

 

[marvar]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

I have a 498T , they are wax potted and have an alnico5 mag-
I've tried this pickup in every guitar I own, and my opinion is it mostly stinks, wayyy too bright, and very overdriven sounding.
The only guitar it really sounded good in was my 335.
I have the burstbucker 1&2 set in my Les Paul, the only thing is, it sounds great when I play alone, but with the band, the sound just gets lost, I really have to boost my gain to get it to cut through.

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

yes, burstbuckers are not for everyone, but when it comes to searching for the authentic les paul tone, they are the ones to start with, along with 57Classics, Seth Lovers, Antiquities, Pearly Gates and other great PAF type pickups. 498T is not PAF type, it is more like a Custom 5. 490R is like an overwound 57Classic, a little muddier. If you put 490R in the bridge, it will immediately take you closer to the real Black Beauty sound without spending any money.

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

My Les Paul Junior/Special came with that 490/498 pickup combo. I'm getting good tones from them. I do have the magnet flipped in the neck pickup, and the tone controls are wired in '50s style, so the caps connect at the volume pot's output terminal. And I'm using a combination of caps the measure .023uf for each tone control.

So I've made a few changes, but the pickups are the orginals.

I'm kind of liking the sound. There's room for improvement, but they're a lot better than how I hear a lot of people describe them.

I am thinking about replacing them with a set of unpotted Duncan '59s that I have coming, but they're good enough that the '59s might go in something else.

Pete

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

490/498 pickups are not bad, they just don't have the classic PAF tone. And they don't work well together: if you adjust the settings of your amp so that the neck pickup sounds good, the bridge pickup will sound too trebly, piercing. and again, if you adjust your amp for the bridge pickup, the neck pickup will sound too muddy. The easiest thing one could do to make them sound better is to swap the magnets between them: 490R with an Alnico 5 magnet will sound brighter and less muddy, and 498T with an Alnico 2 magnet will sound smoother and less trebly. And the change is completely reversible if you don't like it.

 

[paspallum]

Thanks guys

Thanks guys

Thanks for the info guys
My Epiphone Black Beauty sure was made in Japan.
It has 'Made IN JApan' on the back of the headstock.

It is not an elitist... but is made on the same production line and is of the same fine build.

It's only the electronics and pickups that don't pass the AAA grade in fact they aren't even a DDD

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Hey
Thanks so much for the detailed help
But the Gibson Les paul I played that day that I LOVED the sound of WAS the "regular" Les paul. NOT the '57 re0issue. That's the same link I went to on Gibson's site to find out it was equipped with 490/498's

Gibson Les Paul Custom Historic Collection 1957 Black Beauty DOES NOT use 490R/498T pickups. It uses Burstbucker 1/Burstbucker 2 combo. take a look here:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/products/lespauls/573pu/1957Custom3PU.html
This is the model that you played in the shop.

The "regular" Les Paul Custom that uses the 490R/498T combo is a totally different model:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/products/lespauls/lpcustom/LPCustom..[/QUOTE]

 

[paspallum]

So what's the preffered Gibson pickup?

So what's the preffered Gibson pickup?

OK
So I guess I really loved the sound of the 409/498

I thought it made the Les Paul sound like 'A' guitar... not just like a Les Paul... but more interesting.

I gotta admit, I was playing quietly in the store and was tinkering around with clean and mildly driven sounds... I never let rip into any scorching punk or metal...

What other P'ups do gibson make that are recommended? The Burstbucker? it that pretty good?

here's another pic of my Epi

Paspallum

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

That's a good looking Epi. I like how it has the Gibson shape headstock. The Epi headstocks in the USA look kind of weird. I'll have to look around to see if I have pictures of my Epi Elitist SG's headstock. I'd pull it out of it's case & play it, but it's one of those guitars I'm not real thrilled with it's pickups. See, that's the guitar I should probably test drive my unpotted Duncan '59s in. I'm hoping there isn't going to be a long delay on those!

Pete

 

[paspallum]

Unpotted 57's?

Unpotted 57's?

They sound intersting? Unpotteed 57's?
Whats the product number on those?

I like unpotted Humbuckers... I do wish my Antiquity P-90's were potted though... still some nice overtones do come through with 'just enoughh' drive... nice sweet 'ghost feedback' but you can't push them too hard or they sqeaul like a stuck pig

paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Well, the confusion was due to the fact that sometimes people call the Les Paul Custom the "Black Beauty" just because of the colour, while guitar enthusiasts usually use the "Black Beauty" term only to refer to the Historic Reissue model.

I personally don't like the sound of a regular Les Paul Custom, I find it too bright because of the maple top and 498T bridge pickup. But everyone's tastes are different.

I currently own Gibson Burstbuckers 2 and 3 and two 57 Classics. All of them are good sounding pickups, although Burstbuckers are a little too bright in the bridge, and 57 Classics are a little muddy in the neck. I'd recommend Burstbucker 1 in the neck and 57 Classic in the bridge as a perfect combination.

Other Gibson pickups that I owned include the ceramic 496R and 500T, but I don't recommend them unless you want to play metal (seems you don't want to).

Edit: Pete Galati is talking about unpotted Seymour Duncan 59s, not Gibson 57s. These would be very similar though, with 57s having a little more mids and a little less treble. FYI, aftermarket Gibson Burstbuckers usually come unpotted too (the pickups they install in their guitars are all potted).

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Unpotted 57's?

Re: Unpotted 57's?

They sound intersting? Unpotteed 57's?
Whats the product number on those?

I like unpotted Humbuckers... I do wish my Antiquity P-90's were potted though... still some nice overtones do come through with 'just enoughh' drive... nice sweet 'ghost feedback' but you can't push them too hard or they sqeaul like a stuck pig

paspallum

Unpotted '59s, not '57s. Does Duncan make a '57?

Same model number I guess. Specialty Guitars seems to have them made up special. See about halfway down this page:

http://www.specialtyguitars.com/sd/humbuckers.html

There's a slight delay on my order, because they ran out, and had to re-order. I don't know anyone else who sells '59 unpotted. I'm kind of anxious to give them a try.

Pete

 

[paspallum]

Right track

Right track

Pete
Thanks for your opinion... that'll help me a lot.

This Epiphone of mine is just so fine it makes me shudder just thinking of it.
But as I mentioned at the beginning of this post.. the pickups are the worst (or best) example of bad asian stock P/ups that I've ever heard in ANY guitar.

They are so weak and thin... and while they retain a lot more 'individual string definition' when a chord is played with some drive than a bad single coil would.. it is murky..

When playing single string lines and lead stuff the signal seems really thin and weak and a disproportionate amount of noise is coming off the strings not being played... sorta horrible harmonic tones.. that are so prominent because the 'played' string sounds so weak in comparison.. and when you do a moderate string bend.. the string gets out of the magnets 'reach' and just dies... are these bad P/ups or what?

Remember when this guitar is played 'un-plugged' it has the tightest sweetest most musical tone.. as good as any Les Paul I've played... better than most....

anyway I also wanted to ask you what is the story with the electronics...
The Gibson USA Custom shop Les Pauls have those bumblebee caps..

They can't be bought separately from Gibson and some outfit sell replica's for US$60 each! Wow that is nearly as expensive as a Gibson pickup!

What effect would these BB caps have on my tone when I put new pickups (Gibson or Seymour Duncan) in my guitar?

Thanks
Paspallum

 

[Sludgenutz]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

On the Les Paul Forum, there has been discussion of the so-called new issue bumblebee caps...and it turns out to nothing but cheap replica cap of what we all believe to be the genuine article.

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

paspallum, keep in mind that I've never tried the unpotted version of the Duncan '59. I do like the ones that are potted though. To me, they sound a whole lot like Gibson pickups.

Sometime in the mid '80s, I bought a Duncan '59 for my Les Paul Standard, and it didn't work for me because I wanted more power. Just recently, I took that '59 off the shelf, and put a cover on it, and put it in the bridge position of my basswood MIJ Tele, and I loved the thing's sound. So I bought a new one for the neck position.

The potted '59s, I do like. I'm not at all sure about the unpotted version, but I have high hopes for them. The Duncan Seth Lovers are unpotted, and they're getting rave reviews.

I'm not a real big beleiver in expensive caps. I measured the oil & paper caps I put in my Les Paul Standard, and they're .023uf each. They sounded good IMO. But I got very similar results in my Les Paul Junior Special, by connecting a brown poly Xicon .022 cap, in parallel with a ceramic .001 cap, to get a total of .023uf. Same type of tone rolloff, and it cost about $23 a pair less! But the oil & paper caps were a much neater installation, so how could I complain?

Acme sells reproductions of the Bumblebee caps:
http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/CAPS_-_GIBSON_REPRO_C206.cfm

They look kind of cool. But I think your sound is going to be determined by the value of the cap, not the kind of cap. There's less than a volt in a typical passive guitar circuit, while most caps are designed to be used in circuits that run a few hundred volts!

If you want to spend a lot of money on tone caps, I think you should. But I still think it's the cap's actual value that matters. But almost nobody gets a reading on the cap they remove, and the one they install.

Pete

 

[paspallum]

Caps

Caps

Pete
What do caps even do?
If I have my volume and tone set at 10, 10

Does the cap affect the tone them?

Hey thanks truly for your help

Paspallum

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Yes it does a little, because thru the 500k pot of the tone some highs bleed to ground. If want to hear the difference just desolder the connection to the tone pot. I do that sometimes with the neck pickups to get more defintion and highs. The higher the pot rating (eg1 Meg) or lower the cap value (eg.005uF) the less affection to the pure pickup tone.

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Caps

Re: Caps

Pete
What do caps even do?
If I have my volume and tone set at 10, 10

Does the cap affect the tone them?

Hey thanks truly for your help

Paspallum

They leak some of the treble to the ground. And the pot of your tone control, controls how much they leak. Even when the tone control is all the way on 10, they still leak a little bit, unless you're using one of those no-load pots, that completely disconnects the cap when you turn it all the way up. Bigger value pots like 1meg, isolate the cap from the ground a whole lot more, and they can almost sound like they're a treble booster when you turn them all the way up. It's a wider sweep of tone. I'm not crazy about the sound of 1meg tone pots, but I hear that Bill Nash has been using them for a few years.

I've put together humbucker Telecasters with no tone control at all, because I needed both knobs for volume controls. It's a lot brighter without any tone control at all in the circuit. But I eventually went to the normal vol/tone arrangement to help temper the sound.

I'm not an expert. Just an amateur guitar hacker who's guitars are guinea pigs.

Pete