Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

IMHO there's no need to spend a fortune on expensive caps to put them in a cheap guitar. In fact, there are good sounding caps that are not expensive. For example, Sprague Orange Drop caps. I only heard good things about them, maybe they are just as good as BumbleBees. Link:
http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/electrical_capsorange.htm

Edit: BTW, I've just found out that the original BumbleBee caps were also manufatured by Sprague.

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Well, the confusion was due to the fact that sometimes people call the Les Paul Custom the "Black Beauty" just because of the colour, while guitar enthusiasts usually use the "Black Beauty" term only to refer to the Historic Reissue model.

I personally don't like the sound of a regular Les Paul Custom, I find it too bright because of the maple top and 498T bridge pickup. But everyone's tastes are different.

I currently own Gibson Burstbuckers 2 and 3 and two 57 Classics. All of them are good sounding pickups, although Burstbuckers are a little too bright in the bridge, and 57 Classics are a little muddy in the neck. I'd recommend Burstbucker 1 in the neck and 57 Classic in the bridge as a perfect combination.

QUOTE]

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

I'd recommend Burstbucker 1 in the neck and 57 Classic in the bridge as a perfect combination.

Other Gibson pickups that I owned include the ceramic 496R and 500T, but I don't recommend them unless you want to play metal (seems you don't want to).

QUOTE]

 

[Smilemon]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Hi guys
Here's my story.

I was in the local guitar store (here in New Zealand) and I take hold of this brand new Gibson (custom shop) custom Les Paul 'Black Beauty'.

Now this thing played and sounded so good it was un-believeable.
Un-plugged it was nice and solid sounding, it sounded well made... but to plug it in.. that is when the magic started. TONE TONE TONE.... clean, crunch or distortion it was warm and clear and articulate.

So... I proceeded to plug in every set neck twin humbucker guitar in the shop to get comparisons.. schecters, Ibanez, Epiphones, Yammaha's and Yes... even other models of USA Gibson Les Pauls...

If the Gibson Custom shop guitar was an 11 out of 10 (and it was!) the next best was a 5 out of 10... most of them were barely a 2 or 3.

The price? Well the tag said $6999 (this is New Zealand dollars) This is exactly $5285 US dollars....

So anyway I took note of the guitars exact model number and checked it out online.. the pickups in it were Gibson 490 Alnico (Neck) and Alnico 498 (bridge) these pickups alone cost only US$90 each.

So (the story goes on)
I just bought a Japanese domestic stock Epiphone Les paul Custom 'Black Beauty'. This guitar cost me less than 20% of the price of the USA Gibson.
It is as well made (if not better) is finished in Nitro laquer and has the proper GIBSON shaped headstock.

Note: This guitar is finer made than the production USA Gibsons and is as well made as the Custom shop model.. although sure... the body will be three pieces of Mahogany instead of one piece of quartersawn...and the electronics will be on the cheap side.

How does my Jap LP sound? Unplugged it sounds amazing... such a perfect neck... excellant frets and a really lively tone. NOTHING like a Korean made LP

BUT... the pickups SUCK (I did expect this) They are weak, thin, gutless and not at all punchy... I guess they have to cut costs somewhere.

I loved the sound of the Gibson Alnico 490 and 498 (in the Gibson Custom shop LP) so much that I'm thinking of putting them in my Epiphone LP.

Why did I like them? I loved how they had a nice harmonic obevrtone and a bit of sweet controlled feedback... even at low volumes with minimal drive applied.. they are not wax potted (I guess that helps get those overtones I like)

Anyone want to chip in and tell me that I'm on the right track... or tell me of another pickup that will sound like a Gibson Alnico 490?? (or better)

Paspallum

A friend of mine has a Black Beauty, they are *****in guitars.

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

pstarove
My Black Les Paul custom definatley has a maple cap... it must have... it is so bright sounding....(acoustically)

If I were to take your recommendation and install a Burstbucker 1 in the neck and a 57 classic in the bridge.. what type of caps should I use to get a nice warm tone?

You guys have pointed me to some cheaper well made caps... but what would you recommend for these pickups? (or anyone else feel free to 'chime in')

Thanks
Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

pstarove
My Black Les Paul custom definatley has a maple cap... it must have... it is so bright sounding....(acoustically)

If I were to take your recommendation and install a Burstbucker 1 in the neck and a 57 classic in the bridge.. what type of caps should I use to get a nice warm tone?

You guys have pointed me to some cheaper well made caps... but what would you recommend for these pickups? (or anyone else feel free to 'chime in')

Thanks
Paspallum

I don't believe that caps are that important. Sprague Orange Drops are very high quality caps, I use them in 2 of my guitars and I am completely satisfied. I would never pay more than $5 for a cap. IMHO the pot quality and Ohm value is far more important. Check your pots, if they are 300K, change them to 500K CTS audio taper pots.
If you are so concerned about having only the best, then I suggest that you buy some Sprague BumbleBee caps and forget about it. They can be found at around $5-$10 a pair.

P.S. I also strongly encourage you to consider Seymour Duncan Seth Lover and Antiquity pickups. I haven't tried them personally, but they are lower output, warmer and mellower sounding pickups that might complement the LP Custom's inherent brightness better than the Bustbucker1/57Classic combo. Another thing to have in mind is that of all these pickups only 57Classics are waxpotted.

Here's a link with a very useful comparison between various PAF pickups (with sound clips):
http://www1.gitarrebass.de/magazine/0502/paf.htm

Here's another one without clips but with a detailed description:
http://www.legendarytones.com/vinpicup2.html

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

pstarove

Thanks so much for your info.

Actually the question I was asking RE the caps was not down to brand or price (as I have useful links on that) but down to the actual rating of the caps.... they do come in different ratings don't they?

I think I do want a humbucker that is not wax-potted... I have a home studio and never play loud... I like the subtle harmonic feedback a non-potted H/B has a low volume. I'm guessing a wax potted model would not do this at lower volumes.

So what would be your choice of non potted from the Gibson stable?
I have Seymour Duncan's and SD Antiquity's in ALL my guitars... but this time I want to try Gibson as I know they are great pickups and they'll cost me less than Duncan's

And lastly (back on caps again) do you have a link for those Sprague BB caps that are under $10 each (that you mentioned)

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

pstarove

Thanks so much for your info.

you're welcome

Actually the question I was asking RE the caps was not down to brand or price (as I have useful links on that) but down to the actual rating of the caps.... they do come in different ratings don't they?

You are referring to values, don't you? The standard cap value for a Les Paul is .022mfd. If you want even more high-end rolloff, try .047mfd or two 0.022mfd caps in parallel.

I think I do want a humbucker that is not wax-potted... I have a home studio and never play loud... I like the subtle harmonic feedback a non-potted H/B has a low volume. I'm guessing a wax potted model would not do this at lower volumes.

So what would be your choice of non potted from the Gibson stable?

The only Gibson pickups that are unpotted are the aftermarket Burstbuckers #1,#2 and #3. All the pickups that they install in their guitars (including CS) are potted, so don't buy used ones. There was also information about them planning to pot the aftermarket pickups as well, but I don't know if they finally did it. So in your case it's better to buy new pups that have been laying in some shop for a while. I particularly recommend #1 and #2 combo. #3 seems too hot for a PAF to me, and #2 sounds a bit boomy in the neck, so I suppose #1/#2 combo will be better.

I have Seymour Duncan's and SD Antiquity's in ALL my guitars... but this time I want to try Gibson as I know they are great pickups and they'll cost me less than Duncan's

That's interesting to know! If you finally buy them, could you please post a comparison?

And lastly (back on caps again) do you have a link for those Sprague BB caps that are under $10 each (that you mentioned)

Paspallum

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=sprague+bumblebee&category0=

here's a link from evilBay.

I haven't searched them in online shops though.

 

[paspallum]

BB caps

BB caps

Thanks again Pastrove
So the Caps on Evil-bay (yeah) are second hand?
Real 1950's vintage? where did they all come from?
Have people rippewd them out of there guitars? To be replaced by what?

Anyway... you are totally into Gibson pickups huh?
The Burstbuckers are good you reckon?

I started out asking about the 490's and now I'm onto Burstbuckers...

The Gibson P/ups are around $80 (U.S.) the Duncans are around $130... so for me the Gibson's are cheaper...

But I reckon any Gibson, Duncan or Di-marzio would have to sound better than the P/ups that came stock with the guitar... they sound like cookie's with milk on them (soggy) with wires attched to my output jack!

Paspallum

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

My reaction to listening to the .wav files on that page: http://www1.gitarrebass.de/magazine/0502/paf.htm was that there was very little difference from pickup to pickup, in the recordings. Maybe the way that player plays isn't where you'll hear the difference? Or maybe the compresion of the recording make clips close to useless for comparing pickups. They sounded pretty much the same to me!

I imagine that a lot of those Bumblebee caps on ebait were pirated from old electronics gear.

Pete

 

[pstarove]

Re: BB caps

Re: BB caps

Thanks again Pastrove
So the Caps on Evil-bay (yeah) are second hand?
Real 1950's vintage? where did they all come from?
Have people rippewd them out of there guitars? To be replaced by what?

Anyway... you are totally into Gibson pickups huh?
The Burstbuckers are good you reckon?

I started out asking about the 490's and now I'm onto Burstbuckers...

The Gibson P/ups are around $80 (U.S.) the Duncans are around $130... so for me the Gibson's are cheaper...

But I reckon any Gibson, Duncan or Di-marzio would have to sound better than the P/ups that came stock with the guitar... they sound like cookie's with milk on them (soggy) with wires attched to my output jack!

Paspallum

I think most of them are New Old Stock or New Production. If they are real vintage caps from a 50's guitar, you will inmediately see it in the price (they cost more just for being vintage). I think it is not important at all to enter in such detail, so buy a couple and forget about it. After all, you are not reconstructing a real vintage instrument (THEN it would be important), you are creating a customized version of a production model.

I'm using several pickup brands: Gibsons, DiMarzios, Shadows. No Seymour Duncans at the moment, but I used them in the past. I must say all of these brands make good pickup models and bad ones also. BurstBuckers are good, but I'm not sure if they are great. They do have a certain mojo to them though.

When you say $80 you're talking about 49X models (Gibson USA). BurstBuckers are Gibson CS and cost more, up to twice as much ($150) unless you buy used (I got a pair for $170 used). But used ones are most likely potted.

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

My reaction to listening to the .wav files on that page: http://www1.gitarrebass.de/magazine/0502/paf.htm was that there was very little difference from pickup to pickup, in the recordings. Maybe the way that player plays isn't where you'll hear the difference? Or maybe the compresion of the recording make clips close to useless for comparing pickups. They sounded pretty much the same to me!

I imagine that a lot of those Bumblebee caps on ebait were pirated from old electronics gear.

Pete

I really CAN hear the difference between, let's say, Antiquities and Seth Lovers, BurstBuckers and 57 Classics, and DiMarzio (I'm not really interested in custom made pickups). I agree that the guy's playing is sloppy at times and between some pickups it's hard to tell the difference. But at least they made those clips and made them available to the public, so thanks a lot to them.

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Pstrove
Again.... thanks so much for the info... you are really helping me here... sharing your knowledge....

Thanks for setting me right about the price of the Burstbuckers... I just assumed that they would be the same price as the 490 series.

The strange thing is, the original Gibson USA LP Custom I played (while not the historic Black Beauty re-issue) was a custom shop guitar.... why I wonder do they put the 490 P/ups in it?

Maybe then If I have to pay more than the Gibson 490 range .... I should start looking at Seymour Duncans... I'm guessing that the Seth Lover will be an excellant PAF reproduction... and would not dissapoint.

What are the Antiquity's based on? Are they like a 'worn in' sounding PAF or what?

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

paspallum, you're welcome.

LP Custom is made at the custom shop, but it does not have any historically accurate appointments. In fact, they moved it to the CS just to raise its status and charge more for it ($3400 vs $2400 for a LP Classic Custom that is the closest model from Gibson USA). For the people that are aware of the historically accurate features like the right pickups, the long neck tenon etc, there is a 1957 Les Paul Custom Reissue, but the price is higher still ($4400).

You see my point? It's pure marketing. Different models to please different target user groups based on their financial abilities.

Yes, Seth Lovers are a good choice. Antiquities are basically Seth Lovers with weaker magnets, a hotter wind, and cosmetically aged. They are handmade, so the specs vary a bit, resulting in that not all Antiquities sound equally great.

In any case, you can't go wrong with either of them. It will be a step forward in comparison with the stock pickups.

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Pstarove
Finding out all this info is both enlightening and confusing.... so many choices!

I get what you are saying regarding the pricing issues with Gibson (aren't all the big companied the same!)

I also get what you are saying about the Antuquities... I get the fact that they are handmade, makes each one different and unique (like the original 50's P/ups) I have Antiquty's in my Strat and my AnTQ P-90's in my Goldtop.. they sound great... but I find that there is not anything really 'magical' about them soundwise compared to Seymour D's normal range of P/ups.

I don't think I would go for an Antiquity this time... not for my LP... I'd prefer consistent quality over possible irregularuty.

But! I would like to ask.... you said that the AntiQ's have lower output magnets (like a 50 year old pickup would have I guess?) but a 'hotter wind' does that mean more windings?
What would that combination of a weaker magnet and a lower output combined with a 'hotter wind' have on the sound/tone of the pickup?

I'm kinda narrowing it down to Seth Lovers, Duncan '59's or Gibson Burstbuckers.

I found that at 123 music they have a good price on Burstbuckers
http://www.music123.com/Search/Default.aspx?N=64&Ntt=burstbucker

You say the Seth Lovers are a smoother sound?
I like 'smooth' but I still want some bite... some grit...
I want to be able to hear each string ring out articulately with no muddiness.

I'm not into death metal or anything... I do ocassionally like to play a bit of punk, some metal and some rock... that's why I got the Les Paul..

Neil Young and Crazy Horse is my favourite 'overdriven' guitar sound.
But I do want to be able to do more aggressive music if I feel I want to.

Sincerely
Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Paspallum,

You really can't go wrong with any of them. Seth Lovers are the smoothest and the warmest of the three. Both 59s and BurstBuckers are more agressive, but 59s IMHO have a more straightforward, less "noble" sound (for a lack of a better word). Also 59s may sound too trebly with the combination of a maple cap and an ebony fingerboard. So I recommend the Burstbuckers basing on the information that you have provided.

I have first-hand experience only with the Burstbuckers of the three. All the info that I gave you concerning the other two pickups is purely theoretical, but I've tried to be unbiased. May I suggest once more that you go to the following page:
http://www1.gitarrebass.de/magazine/0502/paf.htm
and listen to the clips of the Seth Lover and the Burstbuckers before you make the final decision. IMHO the difference is quite obvious: the Seth Lovers are smoother and the Burstbuckers more gritty, better suited to more agressive music.

Best regards,
pstarove.

P.S. Antiquities have to sound warmer than Seth Lovers, but with a slight edge a-la Bursbuckers. They have less treble and less bass. I suggest that you listen to the Antiquities clip to compare them to the Seth Lovers. To me, they sound like the middle of the road between the Seth Lovers and the Burstbuckers.

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Man Pstarove
You REALLY are helping me out here.
You've helped me narrow it down to where I'll probably be picking between the Seymour Seths and the Gibson Burstbuckers.

I have already started downloading the soundbites to get a good idea of how they might sound.

To go slightly off subject... I had an Ibanez Deluxe '59er a few years back, now this guitar was made in 1976, it was Les Paul in shape and layout, but was made of danelectro style with a wood (maple?) centre block and outline and some kind of fiberboard top and bottom (carved shape.. probably pressed) .. bolt on neck...anyway the humbuckers on it were really nice....

The 'lawsuit' Ibanez Gibson copy guitars (after 1974) are really overrated.. I owned about seven of them.... they were crappy guitars but the pickups were REALLY good (the opposite of my MIJ Epiphone!)

Anyway, my Ibanez's bridge pickup got destroyed while I was trying to wax-pit it (long story) I went to my local guitar store to see if they had 'anything' lying around that I could 'throw' in there until I worked out what to do permanently... he had a Peavey humbucker that came out of a Peavey vanderburg guitar (is he from Whitesnake or something) I was dubious.. but he only wanted $25 for it.... man that pickup was sweet and raunchy too... it had both at the same time... thick and syrupy but with bite... smooth AND crunchy.... I sold it when I sold the guitar!

Back to my new pickup considerations...

Some people want hi-gain crunch... some want smooth buttery humbucker tone...

Could i put a more agressive P/up in the Bridge... and something smoother in the neck for my 'woman tone' (hee hee)

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Paspallum, I'm glad to help you.

If you want a more aggressive sound from the bridge, you might consider the following combos:
Seth Lover neck / Custom Custom bridge (CC is wax potted)
BurstBucker 1 neck / BurstBucker 3 bridge

But in my experience it is always better to go lower output. With today's high gain amps and pedals you can get any amount of distortion with any pickup. On the other hand, higher output pickups like BurstBucker3 and Custom Custom sacrifice some tone, some transparency that cannot be recovered further in the signal chain.

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

But in my experience it is always better to go lower output. With today's high gain amps and pedals you can get any amount of distortion with any pickup. On the other hand, higher output pickups like BurstBucker3 and Custom Custom sacrifice some tone, some transparency that cannot be recovered further in the signal chain.

One of the things Bill Lawrence preaches is that you should get your tone from your pickups, and get your power from your amp. I've been finding that useful advice lately.

Pete

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

One of the things Bill Lawrence preaches is that you should get your tone from your pickups, and get your power from your amp. I've been finding that useful advice lately.

Pete

I totally agree