Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

[paspallum]

Full circle

Full circle

Hey guys
This will go down (as Pete townsend said) "like a lead zeppilin"

Today I took my MIJ Epiphone Les Paul Custom back to the store where I first played the USA custom shop LP custom (with the Gibson 490's)

Very interesting...
Firstly the USA CS was a tad heavier... noticeably heavier...

First..... the unlugged test (most important in this case)

The USA C/Shop LP sounded great acoustically, thick and chunky but sweet sounding.

MY Epi also sounded great, a little less 'dark' (due ro it's lighter weigh and rosewood board) and a bit thinner but the sound was very simlar... more similar than any other guitar in the whole shop. Including a USA LP Standard which as a guitar was also heavier than my Epi... didn't play as well as or sound acoustically as good as my Epi and plugged in the pick-ups sounded very marginally better than the soggy stock P'up'sin my Epi LP.

Next the amp test... now it's important to note here that with all this discussion of pickups, myself or anybody contributing to my thread have never mentioned what amp or pedal they use and if they predominately play live or record... clean? crunch? hi gain?

I'm into recording and I have a Peavey Delta Blues valve amp... This is maybe not the best 'boutique' amp in the world but I like it....it is sassy and classy and has pretty darn good tone... I actually like all of the 'Classic' peavey range.

Anyway... so I plug in the USA Custom Shop Black custom (with the 490's) into the store's Peavey Delta Blues and glory-hallaluja! Whammo! that's my sound!

That was THE sound that got me excited about the Gibson 490/498 in the first place!
The great attack on notes the articulation... the harmonic overtones... the sweet feedback.... bridge, middle or neck... all sounded amazing.

It sounded great clean and awesome with some amp valve drive!
Then I gave it the 'hi-gain' test, plugged a pedal in front of the amp (a Boss DS-1) It chunked and punked... thick and powerfull.

The young 'shredder' at the store (who is an Eddie VH freak said "Yeah I could shred on that!")

I LOVED the punchy, warm, loud, 'singing' qualities of this pickup.

Then we plugged in my Epi .... (remember acoustically it was a close match)
Well it sounded quiet and polite by comparison.... kinda low output and sweet... but not very articulate and a bit muddy...

(And I have heard that the AntQ's can be low output and polite)

So there you go, I have found a set of pickups.... in a similar guitar to mine and auditioned them...

I tried the high gain test and didn't experience any muddieness...

I'd be truly happy if My LP sounded JUST like that... and I guess with the 490/498 combo it would (or could) sound VERY close to that?

The senoir staff at he store who have played UNTOLD many guitars over 30 years, agreed that my Epiphone is a VERY nice guitar and VERY worthy of a great set of pickups!

The thought of Antiquities still haunt me.... but I can't hear them.. the 490's I have heard and I can grab that sound with my ears and say "That's IT THAT is the tone I want... but I'd love to hear teh ANtQ's as well... maybe they'd be different.... but just as or more appealling?

The store manager has Antiquity HmBKrs in one of his Gibson's... maybe I can arrange for an audition and A/B against the 490's?

Paspallum

Now if I could just play a Les Paul with Seth Lovers or Antiquity's in it... I could really make up my mind!

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

First ask the store manager to audition his guitar. If he refuses for some reason, buy 490R/498T because you like them.

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

First ask the store manager to audition his guitar. If he refuses for some reason, buy 490R/498T because you like them.

That sounds like a good plan to me. Because it sounds like you might have found the sound you want in the 490 498 pickups.

Those do seem to be the pickups in my '98 Les Paul Junior Special and while I've made changes to my wiring, and did the whole magnet flipping trick on the neck pickup, I can't come up with a good enough reason to replace them. Yet that is.

Pete

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

PStarove and Pete Galanti
You guys have been awesome!

Thanks so much for your advice!

Paspallum

 

[paspallum]

My idea

My idea

Hey guys

Yesterday my Epiphone Les Paul got the heavier string treatment.
(all my guitars have individually selected sets of strings)
This is the gauge on my LP now:
11
15
20 (unwound)
32
40
52

I also tightened down my stop bar as far as it would go (I noticed yesterday that this was how the Gibson Custom shop model was set up)

The new strings and more tension over the bridge/tailpiece has rewarded me with more tone.. the guitar plays even better and the heavier strings are 'shaking the wood' more.

Today the guys at the Guitar shop thought my EPI LP sounded REALLY good... they reckon that it plays better than the USA CShop model.....

They also said they liked the sound of the pickups.... especially the neck P/up which they prefered over the Gibson's 490R.

MYSELF I still MUCH prefer the Gibson with the 489T and 490R.

This is what I plan to do... I'd love some feedback on this as I'm sure there is more to this than currently 'meets my eye'.

OK.. for starters I will need to upgrade my Pots and Caps anyway to get new pickups. You guys have said to get 500K CTS pots and a 022mfd. cap.
(the caps currently in my guitar now are small, round (or oval) and look just like a lentil, same colour and evetything (brownish - dull orange) they have 223 printed on them.

So I thought... that as the Gibson with the 490's sounded so much punchy and certainly louder and thicker than my guitar... maybe I should start off replacing the pots and caps and see what I've got then?

The next step I'm considering is to buy a Gibson 498T... and another pickup (not the 490R) maybe a Seth for the neck? (and you guys will be able to tell me if this would work or not)

My method here is... this:
If I 'blow all my money' on a full set of Antiquity's (without ever having heard them) I'm kinda stuck with them (for better or worse)
Same if I got the Gibson 490R/498T set..... (or the Seths)

IF... if I got the EXACT Bridge P/up that I KNOW I LOVE (as I have heard and played it) The 498T... and say a neck AntQ or Seth... then for the price of only ONE more pickup (not a whole set) I could replace the bridge 498T with a Seth or an AntQ anytime in the future...

Even keep all three pickups and swap the Bridge in and out from time to time for the sake of a bit of variety...

To me this would give me the chance of having TWO complete pickup sounds... one that I know I like, and one that is most highly recommended by the SD users group.

If the AntQ and Seth are too lower output to work with a 498T? are there any work-arounds? Or what other Gibson Or Seymour Duncan neck P/ups would you recommend to with a 498T?

Paspallum

 

[Pete Galati]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Which terminal on the volume pots are those tone caps connected to?

I think what you're describing are .022uf ceramic caps.

If they're connected to the input terminal on the volume pots (where the pickup is connected) try connecting them to the output terminal which is the center connection. That'd be roughly how '50s Les Pauls are wired up, which might be how the Custom Shop Les Paul is wired.

Seems to make a very audible how the tone caps are hooked up, whether you use them or not. Maybe someone at the music store can tell you where the Custom Shop's tone caps are connected.

You might be able to make some progress with your sound without buying any new parts at all.

Pete

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

It's funny but yesterday I changed the strings on my Les Paul Custom for EXACTLY the same gauge. And the change was quite radical. I tune to Eb, and I'm used to the feel of 0.010-0.046 strings on a 25.5" scale. 0.011s feel exactly the same on a 24.75" Gibson scale!

Well, concerning your pickup problem, I recommend to buy Seth Lover neck/ 498T combo. Just because the Antiquities only come with worn nickel plated covers, and it will not look right cosmetically if you have one worn nickel cover and one shiny gold. Also I think that SL/498 will sound good together, even better than with 490R neck.

 

[paspallum]

Good match?

Good match?

Hey
Pstarove

I want to get nickel covers anyway (the gold is to 'pimp' for me)
And I'm going to oxidize them with vinegar to 'age' them.

So.... in that case (and thanks for being caring enough to assume that I wouldn't want one nickel and one gold cover - you're right!)

So ...would a 498T bridge and a neck AntQ go together well?

I mean the 490 is a higher output P/up isn't it? And the AntQ very low.... Does this cause problems matching differring output P/ups?

Yep I think I would possibly go for an AntQ Neck and a 498T bridge?
But yeah a Seth and a 498 might be pretty cool too.

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

490R pickup has a DC resistance between 8.0K and 8.5K, so it's like a Seth Lover bridge. It's not really high output, it's just a bit muddy for the neck position. Both Seth Lover neck (7.2K) and Antiquity neck (7.8K) would be brighter and better suited for that position. I recommend the Seth Lover because it is brighter than the Antiquity, and will better match with 498T, which is also very bright. Output-wise SL will be a better match, too.

 

[paspallum]

step two

step two

Pstarove
If I took your advice (based on my desires) for a bridge Gibson 498T and a Neck Seth Lover....

And in the future I decided I wanted to go Antiquity.... and put an AntQ HB in the bridge... would that work with the Seth L in the neck?

Paspallum

 

[paspallum]

User reviews

User reviews

Hey
THIS is what I've been looking for for weeks now.
Harmony Central User reviews. ( I couldn't find AntQ HBkrs even with a search... until today)

The community on this SD forum are knowledgeable about most evetything.... but so much talk of 'modding' and other woird things.... it's hard to get an actual impartial user 'review' of actual pickups.

And Pstarove... you have been so helpful and have so much respect from me!
But it is great to hear what the average user of certain pickupos has to say.

A lot of people describing exactly how their AntQ's sound.
Some people a really happy with them... most are either not totally impressed or REALLY let down...

The first guy actually swapped out his Gibson 490/498.. so that is intersting!
Check out the first two pages!
http://reviews.harmony-central.com/...+Pickup/product/Seymour+Duncan/Antiquity/10/1

Actually I'm just getting to pages 2 -4 of 5 pages of reviews on AntQ and the comments are just GLOWING on the ANtQ's... people are just raving about how good they are! I'm drooling!
Hell my MIJ Epi Les Paul is such and amazingly good example of a LP custom that it would be worth buying theAntQ and if I wasn't happy...I KNOW that I'll like the GBSn 498T and that's just 'one purchase' away.... it's just what people are saying about the AntQ's.. they might be SOooooo much better than a 498?

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Yeah I read all these reviews some time ago. Thanks for your kind words. I'm just trying to help you. SLneck will function great with an Antiquity bridge.
Concerning your question whether Antiquity bridge is so much better than a 498 I must say that they are just too different to compare. 498 is a 13.6K 43AWG wire machine wound wax potted Alnico5 high-to-medium output monster, it's kinda a harsher, more trebly SD Custom 5. Antiquity is a 8.5K 42AWG wire hand wound unpotted aged Alnico2 low output "tone heaven" pickup. They were created for different applications. You just choose what you want from this guitar. I would choose an Antiquity over 498T any day of the week, but that's just me and I don't like high output pickups (and I'm a metal player BTW).

 

[paspallum]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Pstarove
So you do play metal?

I would play old some school metal and punk... like The Clash, The Ramones and Metal like Danzig, The Cult and AC/DC.

Do you think the AntQ's would handle that? Would they grind and drive that kinda style..... I don't need to go to Korn or Pantera or shredding extremes.

Actually today I was finally able to download those german clips and read all those great Harmony reviews on the AntQ's... I gotta say on the sound clips the AntQ's were the best of all the clips...way better than the Seths!

I think it's going to have to be Antiquity's.
You don't have AntQ's do you Pstarove? How do you know so much about them?

Then later...If I still felt that I was lacking that Gibson 498 power... I'd just buy one for the bridge!

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Yeah, I play mainly Jerry Cantrell and Alice in Chains, but the things I compose myself are a little heavier. And my low output pickups are never a limiting factor. It's the contrary: when I used high output 'buckers like EMGs, SD Invader, HotRails, Gibson 496R/500T, DiMarzio AirNorton/ToneZone, I felt that their sound was limiting my style of playing. And with PAF-type pickups I just feel free.

For all the rock groups you've mentioned Antiquities will be more than enough. It depends on the amp also, but you can always add some pedal to get the desired sound. Low output 'buckers are just a great basement you can build your sound upon.

I also like the Antiquity clip most of all these. My second favorite is the Burstbuckers clip.

 

[paspallum]

AntiQ's

AntiQ's

Pstarove
It is pretty much decided then! Antiquity's for me!

One of the things I did like about the 498T was with a little bit of valve amp gain, notes would 'soar' and blossom or 'bloom' into nice feedback overtones.... nothing out of control just a nice feedback that sang in harmony with the natrual sustain of the note.
And they are wax potted!

I'm wondering (hoping) that the AntiQ's would do the same with some small amount of gain applied?

But the 'transparency' that you mentioned earlier regarding the AntQ's is VERY evident in the soundclips... they fit into the track so very well... where some of the other P/ups... kinda 'stand out' too much.

I have a home studio, I don't play much out of my studio... so recorded tone is the most important to me... the AntQ's sound saturated and transparent... but have all the tone, 'honk' and sparkle and sustain that makes a great Les paul sound.

I doubt that you'd ever have to compress or EQ the AntQ guitar track very much... maybe to enhance the tone a bit... but never to 'repair it' or get it sitting comfortably in a mix.... the natrual sound is perfect.

And as you say.... If I find them too polite... add a pedal.... and then If I'm still wishing I had the Gibson 498T... I can always buy that later

Are you going to get a set of AntQ's?
What low output P/ups are you using now?

paspallum

Paspallum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Congratulations on your decision, Paspallum! It was hard but you finally did it!

Well, some time in the future I'd like to try Antiquities. Now I'm using Gibson 57Classics in my Orville by Gibson Black Beauty (they came stock), Burstbuckers 2 and 3 in my Steinberger GSX (a rare model with a headstock unlike the usual headless ones).

But my favorite ones are the handwound pickups in my Parker Fly Deluxe made from DiMarzios Parker Custom pickups. Their specs are the following (I invented the specs myself, but the pickups were wound by a local professional winder): 8K neck, 9K bridge, dual resonance coils (using AWG42 and AWG43 gauge wire, wound to 3.9K+4.1K vs 4.7K + 4.3K), Alnico2 magnets, AirBucker technology (air gaps between the magnet and the pole pieces, the effect is similar to ageing a magnet like in Antiquities), Virtual Vintage technology (iron loading inside the coils, between the pole pieces), light wax potting. The result is amazing: these pickups just sing in that guitar! There is nothing that comes close by specs from any manufacturer (and by sound also, I suppose). The closest ones you can get would be DiMarzio Virtual PAF neck and Virtual Hot PAF bridge with magnets swapped to Alnico2. I actually plan to buy myself another used Parker Fly (this time the Classic model with a mahogany body) and swap the pickups to these, I like them so much!

If you listen to the clip of DiMarzio Virtual PAF on the german website (which is one of my less favorites there), you will notice that it's too clean sounding and too defined for a PAF. It's because of an Alnico5 magnet in it coupled with all the "hi tech" DiMarzio stuff. With Alnico 2 it becomes very close to that "ideal PAF" sound.

Excuse me if it was too much unnecessary info for you, I just had to brag 8) And you are such a thankful listener 8)

Pstarove

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Yes, I'm a pickup freak! I just like playing with technical stuff.

Swapping magnets is really very simple. The only tool you need is a screwdriver. And the results are amazing, it's like a whole new pickup.

Yes, my guitar is like that one in the photo, it's the top of the line replica model, the Black Beauty reissue LPC-57B. It has a vintage-correct mahogany top and an ebony fingerboard unlike most of the other copies. Gibson only produced these during two years, from 1993 to 1995, after that it stopped the Orville deal because the quality of those japanese guitars surpassed that of the standard Gibson USA models and was comparable to the custom shop models. Later it renamed those guitars Epiphone Japan/Elite or Elitist and introduced "changes" to the specs that made those guitars different from their own Custom Shop models (like a rosewood board and a maple top on the LPC model) and thus less desirable (but still of high quality). Your Epiphone Japan must come from the same Fuji Gen Gakki factory and must be a great guitar too.

 

[paspallum]

Intersting

Intersting

Pstarove
Very intersting! You are so knowledgeable about pickups....
I know about tone... I have a great ear for tone and how to go about getting it... but swapping magnets? That is beyond me!

But I see you are able to do that and you seem to be well rewarded with the results. I'm guessing that since you dig the sound of the AntQ's so much... your own designed custom P/ups must sound quite a lot like AntQ's

Your Orville sounds like it would be nice. I'm guessing it was made in the same factory in Japan as My Epiphone? Maybe yours is more of a '57 spec guitar than mine which is a generic Les Paul Custom style.
(I've attached a nice pic of an Orville BB)

No-one has yet answered my question as to if the Antiquity's will go into that singing sweet harmonic feedback?

Paspalum

 

[pstarove]

Re: Gibson 490 Alnico Humbuckers?

Yes, I designed them like a cross between the DiMarzio Virtual PAFs and Antiquities. As far as I never owned Antiquities myself, I cannot say if they sound close, but they certainly have their own voice and a very beautiful one. They let the guitar shine through.

This is my guitar:

It seems a little different from the one on your photo: different tuners and different knobs, not sure about whether the fingerboard is rosewood or ebony.

 

[paspallum]

Black

Black

Pstarove
As they say 'Black is Beautiful'.

Wow... it sure looks good (nice photo)

The first thing I thought when I saw it was "Ebony board"

But it could be really dark rosewood....

Mine is obviously light rosewood. I am going to buy some ebony stain from Stewart Macs (USA) it is only US$5.00 a bottle and on his website he quoted that PRS use it on thier high end guitars to darken up streaky rosewood or ebony that is not dark enough...

I know it won't change my guitars sound.... but a Black Beauty style LP custom should have a black neck I think... makes it look more authentic and vintage.

Do you have any sound clips of your Orville?

Paspallum