Gibson files new lawsuits

[nexion218]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits



Gibson and Fender have toyed with more modern features in some sort of 'modern' series...and those tend to be great guitars. But I think they need to go buy a few Collings or Suhrs and figure out that you can make every guitar play like that. Both of those companies just aren't set up to spend that much time making 1 guitar. Maybe their custom shops do, but those are so laughably overpriced that no wonder people flock to smaller companies where the builder is the one actually answering the phone.

Agreed... at least in part. I mean... The highest category instrument I own is an E-II - a factory made production model, in the price range of a LP Standard. Not a single friggin' flaw on it. None. No company should ever de-value their top-of-the-shelf line by not being set up to spend so much time on one guitar. That could be an excuse I accept for Epiphone or Indo Jacksons, but not the "real deals". Despite all that, I fully understand the "more the better" philosphy of a production company.

 

[Artie]

I hope my comment is "on topic", but to me, a good setup is worth more than a brand name. I get to handle about 1 or 2 Gibson LP's per month, and my EPI's always play, and sound, as good, if not better. Mind you, my EPI's all have upgraded pups and electronics, and a complete pro setup from my luthier friend. Also, the Gibsons don't get a setup until after I do any electronics repair/mods, so that I don't "upset the applecart", so to speak, when I take the strings and stuff off. But still . . . I think you get my point.

 

[Cynical]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits



Thing is, it should force these companies filing the suits to see what these other companies are doing right. Most people who want the absolute best playing Strat don't get an actual Fender. Companies like Suhr and Collings make exceptional guitars. Had Gibson & Fender made comparable-quality guitars as these, they'd have no need to sue, as you'd just get the originals. But it takes a long time to turn a dinosaur...these smaller companies can adapt and change with their customers. They also don't have to lean on tradition so heavily, and can build a better machine.

Fender isn't really targeting the market that Suhr or Collings are, though. Fender are more "workhorse guitars" than "heirloom guitars", and IME always deliver excellent quality for the price; the MIM guitars, especially, are great bang-for-the-buck guitars.

Different story with Gibson, and given the price bracket they're playing in, it's probably not a good sign for them that the last couple of times I've picked up a Gibson at a store, I've been able to find an Epiphone version of the same model at the same store that played and sounded better.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Agreed... at least in part. I mean... The highest category instrument I own is an E-II - a factory made production model, in the price range of a LP Standard. Not a single friggin' flaw on it. None. No company should ever de-value their top-of-the-shelf line by not being set up to spend so much time on one guitar. That could be an excuse I accept for Epiphone or Indo Jacksons, but not the "real deals". Despite all that, I fully understand the "more the better" philosphy of a production company.

Is that a fact? Then I think you overpaid. E-II is about the same price range as Ibanez Prestige new, even less if it is used. An LP is at least twice that. E-II is not even a high end, upper mid range maybe but definitely not on par with an LP.

A good factory setup can go ballistic by the time the guitar reaches the dealer due to weather, and some other things in transit. So I don't think we can blame Gibson/ Fender/ Suhr/ etc. for a bad setup. Poor craftsmanship if any, maybe, but not a setup; Unless somebody has different understanding what a 'setup' is.

 

[nexion218]

Is that a fact? Then I think you overpaid. E-II is about the same price range as Ibanez Prestige new, even less if it is used. An LP is at least twice that. E-II is not even a high end, upper mid range maybe but definitely not on par with an LP.

A good factory setup can go ballistic by the time the guitar reaches the dealer due to weather, and some other things in transit. So I don't think we can blame Gibson/ Fender/ Suhr/ etc. for a bad setup. Poor craftsmanship if any, maybe, but not a setup; Unless somebody has different understanding what a 'setup' is.

Yeah, pretty much.

This is the E-II that I have:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/esp_e_ii_h...ertune_blk.htm

It cureently retails for 2555 Euros, which is around 3k USD.

Here's an LP Standard:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/gibson_les...ard_60s_ub.htm

It currently retails for 2333 Euros, which is 2.8k USD.

And here's the official on E-II, from their website:

"Created at the ESP facility in Tokyo, Japan, the ESP E-II Series is our highest-quality factory-produced instrument collection."

Could be a new thing, but as far as I understand, ESP have scramled their lineup yet again, reserved the ESP brand for Custom Shop and artist sig stuff and currently their highest non-CS/artist sig stuff is E-II. So that pretty much makes them comparable: top-of-the-line factory produced instruments retailing in the 3k USD range. But even if for the sake of discussion we don't accept what ESP says and instead say the the E-II is an upper midrange guitar, that would make my previous post even more valid in my eyes: a mid-tier instrument can be built to a flawless standard (and I'm not talking feature and look, that's subjective, I'm talking build quality and materials), whereas legendary brands fail to set up their production lines to make their top stuff impeccable. And this goes for any maker, not just the big G.

And of course I did not overpay, because it's mine and I like it. I bought it from a guy who bought it new and for some reason sold it off basically unplayed, below 2k. The guy seemed a bit suspect, so I asked ESP to check out the serial and pics and they assured me that it was legit, so I pulled the trigger. The setup vs craftsmanship stuff is well said, I agree fully!

 

[Cynical]

Re: the ESP rebrandings, what I heard happened is that the ESP Standard series didn't used to be sold in Japan -- all that was in Japan was the LTD lines and ESP Custom Shop stuff. ESP started having a problem with ESP Standard series getting imported back into Japan and being sold as Custom Shop instruments by various unscrupulous sellers, so they rebranded the Standard series as E-II to prevent this.

E-IIs typically go for around $1800-2200 USD in the U.S., so if they cost $3k in Europe, you're definitely overpaying.

 

[Mincer]

I haven't seen if Collings has issued a statement. I haven't seen one on their social media.

 

[greekdude]

It will be fun when the Spaniards will file lawsuit against guitar companies that make guitar's whose lower bout resembles the classical guitar (practically all guitar companies) , and the Russians copyright the 7-string guitar.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Yeah, pretty much.

This is the E-II that I have:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/esp_e_ii_h...ertune_blk.htm

It cureently retails for 2555 Euros, which is around 3k USD.

Here's an LP Standard:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/gibson_les...ard_60s_ub.htm

It currently retails for 2333 Euros, which is 2.8k USD.

And here's the official on E-II, from their website:

"Created at the ESP facility in Tokyo, Japan, the ESP E-II Series is our highest-quality factory-produced instrument collection."

Could be a new thing, but as far as I understand, ESP have scramled their lineup yet again, reserved the ESP brand for Custom Shop and artist sig stuff and currently their highest non-CS/artist sig stuff is E-II. So that pretty much makes them comparable: top-of-the-line factory produced instruments retailing in the 3k USD range. But even if for the sake of discussion we don't accept what ESP says and instead say the the E-II is an upper midrange guitar, that would make my previous post even more valid in my eyes: a mid-tier instrument can be built to a flawless standard (and I'm not talking feature and look, that's subjective, I'm talking build quality and materials), whereas legendary brands fail to set up their production lines to make their top stuff impeccable. And this goes for any maker, not just the big G.

And of course I did not overpay, because it's mine and I like it. I bought it from a guy who bought it new and for some reason sold it off basically unplayed, below 2k. The guy seemed a bit suspect, so I asked ESP to check out the serial and pics and they assured me that it was legit, so I pulled the trigger. The setup vs craftsmanship stuff is well said, I agree fully!

Good for you if you didn't feel that you overpaid. Over here in the east a used E-II in pristine, like new condition from 2013-2015 (Eclipse and Horizon NT) retails around a thousand or less now with the USD and EUR having risen in value. Plus it comes with a kinda sub standard standard hardcase with the logo printed instead of embossed, that most likely not fit for air travel.

For a few hundred dollars more you could get a RG6xx series with Edge tremolo and Dimarzios and plush hardcase. But I guess everything is more expensive in Euro zone.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: the ESP rebrandings, what I heard happened is that the ESP Standard series didn't used to be sold in Japan -- all that was in Japan was the LTD lines and ESP Custom Shop stuff. ESP started having a problem with ESP Standard series getting imported back into Japan and being sold as Custom Shop instruments by various unscrupulous sellers, so they rebranded the Standard series as E-II to prevent this.

E-IIs typically go for around $1800-2200 USD in the U.S., so if they cost $3k in Europe, you're definitely overpaying.

This is not necessarily true. For example, in 2013 a Dodge Challenger SRT-8 could be found in the U.S. for under $30k all day. That same car in Europe, at the time, was over $50k. On the flip side, a BMW costs less in Europe than it does in the U.S.

These rules apply to gear as well. Items that are more readily available in the U.S. cost less here while fetching a higher price in Europe. There are several reasons why this happens outside of just supply and demand, but just because a buyer in the U.S. pays more to get a European-spec Ferrari does not mean the U.S. buyer overpaid. It means that the U.S. buyer paid what it cost to get the exact item they desired. There is always a cost to crossing borders with premium gear. Just because you can get it for less in the U.S. does not mean that price sets the market. Period. This is basic World Trade 101.

 

[Snake Aces]

Good for you if you didn't feel that you overpaid. Over here in the east a used E-II in pristine, like new condition from 2013-2015 (Eclipse and Horizon NT) retails around a thousand or less now with the USD and EUR having risen in value. Plus it comes with a kinda sub standard standard hardcase with the logo printed instead of embossed, that most likely not fit for air travel.

For a few hundred dollars more you could get a RG6xx series with Edge tremolo and Dimarzios and plush hardcase. But I guess everything is more expensive in Euro zone.

Again, see my above post.

 

[nexion218]

Yep, exactly^^^. The difference in the US and EU price you guys pointed out is at least in part due to VAT/taxes, so if you want to buy stuff non-EU stuff over here, you either buy it cheap from say Sweetwater and as soon as it reaches the border, the Customs will hit it with astronomical taxes and custom fees or you can buy it from a EU distributor/retailer and as the link I provided shows you end up paying the same - Thomann (or any other company) has to pay the import fees too and they're not kind enough to the swallow it and sell the gear at a price where they loose money/margin.

Also, I included the smiley to make sure that you all know that I am making fun of myself ("I did not overpay, because it's mine and I like it" - two very and deliberately laughable reasons) and as I said, I paid in the 1800-2000 USD range for it. That was part of the reason I pulled the trigger on it: it was almost unplayed and at a price where I knew I couldn't get one here in Europe.

But this is turning into a huge OT... The point was that the LP Standard Ilinked as an example and this E-II are comparable in price and in their position in the maker's roster. If you normalize their prices to 1, you'll get the same ratio bewtween the two no matter where you buy it and how much you pay for it and that way maybe we can shiftthe spotlight from the actual USD figures. So with that out of the way, we're left with two theoretically comparable quality and category instruments from two different makers one of which - seemingly - has a problem producing consistently flawless products as part of their upper echelon of guitars, which is a shame, because both the brand and the fans of the brand deserve better for that kind of dough. That's all I wanted to say. Peace.