Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

[papersoul]

Hi Gibson guys,

I have never experimented on any one guitar so I don't know how these components change the tone. I am a believer that the core tone comes from the guitar's wood and construction, then the pickups, hardware....etc are icing or an added flavor so to speak.

I am wondering about the tuners and stop tail bridge assemblies. I have heard that for example on a Les Paul the lighter Kluson tuners add to the resonation of the neck and at the same time I hear the added mass of chrome Grovers or Sperzels will add sustain. What about resonation from the Grovers?

I also hear talk about how great the Tone Pro bridge compnents happen to be and really can add depth, warmth, and resonance to the tone. Is any of this that noticable? I have a 2003 LP Standard all stock other than pickups and electronics and was just wondering especially because very few guitars come stock with kluson style tuners.

Thanks!

 

[Scott_F]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

I'd not worry about the tuners. If you wrap your strings properly, you really don't need locking ones on a Lester. As for changes in tone, I'd just stick to the Grovers.

But, I do think the TonePros really add stability to that bridge assembly. Also, I'm partial to the lighter tail piece on my reissue. I'm not sure of the tone help of a lighter tail piece, but I do think the TP bridge will add a bit more resonance to the experience.

How about some killer pups?

 

[Ken]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Personally, I would reccommend making sure the instrument is professionally and properly set up before deciding where to go with any hardware modifications. It's amazing how much a simple set up can do for an instruments playability and sound. This includes proper saddle intonation and nut filing. A well-filed nut can add immensely to your overall intonation, and helps tremendously with the problems of strings sounding "off" in the first few frets.

After your guitar is set up well, it's time to start asking yourself, and others, questions. What do you like? What do you not like? What would help the guitar to be more effective for your personal style?

The general rule for resonance and sustain (generally speaking, they can be synonymous) is that more mass = more sustain. However, any well-assembled and set up guitar should have more sustain than you should ever really need.

One of the main arguments I've heard for the TonePros has been the simple fact that one need not worry about it slipping off during string changes. I believe it was Lew, cited that he felt the locking studs "warmed up" the guitar a bit.

All things considered, any modifications done to a guitar should be done with your personal interests in mind. If you're happy with what you've got, then there's no real reason to invest more money unless you're wanting to experiment and see if you can get that much closer to "your" sound, or just have fun with new sounds. The amount of quality instruments hitting the market has never been higher (can somebody say Schecter?) and it's becoming easier and easier to find a pre-made guitar that is right for you.

As I tell my customers: There are limitless options; what do YOU want from your instrument?

 

[papersoul]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Thanks,

My LP was set up by who I consider to be one of the best in the area, and I also had him do a fret dressing as I have done to all of my guitars. This guy does amazing fret dressings from PRS to Gibson. He also did a fine set up but left the nut untouched because it was so low from the factory but mentioned I could bring it back for a quick adjustment or widening of the slots to alow the strings to slide through with more glide.

I also use a locking technique when wrapping the strings around the tuning posts. All in all, I am VERY happy with my Les Paul and this guitar really has cured a lot of my guitar G.A.S. but I do have the desire for something a little different once in a while but I have decided to stick with used guitars that hold value like PRS, Hamer and Gibson. I am sick of get burned on other guitars even though I love some Deans.

 

[strat_master]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Thanks,

My LP was set up by who I consider to be one of the best in the area, and I also had him do a fret dressing as I have done to all of my guitars. This guy does amazing fret dressings from PRS to Gibson. He also did a fine set up but left the nut untouched because it was so low from the factory but mentioned I could bring it back for a quick adjustment or widening of the slots to alow the strings to slide through with more glide.

I also use a locking technique when wrapping the strings around the tuning posts. All in all, I am VERY happy with my Les Paul and this guitar really has cured a lot of my guitar G.A.S. but I do have the desire for something a little different once in a while but I have decided to stick with used guitars that hold value like PRS, Hamer and Gibson. I am sick of get burned on other guitars even though I love some Deans.

What locking technique are your efering to exactly? sounds interesting and valuable of a technique.

 

[papersoul]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Not sure how to explain the locking technique but maybe I or someone could find you a link. I think it is also in one of Dan Erlweine's books.

 

[Wattage]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Anything theat touches the string will have an effect on your tone. For years I would only use Schallers (I still prefer them but I am not so nutty about it now - yeah right!) because I was used to their effect on the guitars sound. Klusons definitely contribute an airy vibe where as tuners like full size Grovers or Schallers add mass to the stock and therefore some additional sustain. Seriously though it only seems to be much of an issue acoustically once amplified a lot of those subtle differences disappear. I still prefer Schallers for there feel but that is just a personal pref. I didn't really take much notice of the difference between stock and Tone Pros but I did notice a big difference when I popped on a light weight tail. If you've got some money to burn it is a nice upgrade, the TP stuff is nice because it doesn't fall off or go out of adjustment when chaging strings.

Only one Les Paul? GAS hasn't even started yet!

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Not sure how to explain the locking technique but maybe I or someone could find you a link. I think it is also in one of Dan Erlweine's books.

Believe it or not, that stringing technique is in the Gibson instruction
manual that nobody ever looks at, inside the case. I think it's also in
the Fender owner's manual as well. If you do it properly, you don't need
locking tuning pegs. On one of my pauls, I changed the tuners to Schaller direct fit Kluson copies. I do like them better, but if a Les Paul is setup and intonated right, you don't need to change the tuners unless they're broken.

I guess you could change some of the tailpieces to aluminum, but the best thing to do when you're thinking of changing something on a classic guitar
like a Gibson is to stop.....go grab a glass of ice water, and throw it in your own face. Then, pick up the guitar and play it, and forget about all the modding nonsense! LOL :laugh2:

 

[Duncan]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Personally, I would reccommend making sure the instrument is professionally and properly set up before deciding where to go with any hardware modifications. It's amazing how much a simple set up can do for an instruments playability and sound. This includes proper saddle intonation and nut filing. A well-filed nut can add immensely to your overall intonation, and helps tremendously with the problems of strings sounding "off" in the first few frets.

I'd agree with that. Lots of guys start modding their instrument before they even realise what they have got. If you still intend to mod the guitar, with a LP, start small and only change one thing at a time. Firstly, I'd suggest a pot/cap upgrade, like the RS kit. Put it in one of my Pauls and was AMAZED at the improvement, mainly in the usability of the volume and tone controls. Secondly, look at nut, bridge and tailpiece changes. Finally, pups...

That's just my opinion, anyway...

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Heavier tuners, like Grovers, do help increase sustain. So does leaning the peghead of your guitar against a concrete wall...and for the same reason. It adds mass and helps keep the peghead from flapping in the breeze, using up string energy. On the other hand, lighter tuners give a guitar a more open and breathier tone.

You have to try both and see which you prefer.

Lighter aluminum tailpieces do the same thing. Heavier lock down tailpieces like those made by Tone Pros improve the low end and sustain at the expense of the more acoustic and tranparant tone given by lightweight aluminum tailpieces.

I prefer the more acoustic voice myself...tho as a younger player I always changed to Grovers and wanted maximum sustain. These days, at 54, I like a little more room in the guitar's tone for my own personality to come through.

Maximum sustain is cool tho! Whatever turns you on...

Lew

 

[dystrust]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

I've modded my 2001 LP Standard to death. The only original parts are the neck & body, the pickup rings, switch & switch washer, the jack, and the jackplate.

I've changed tuners, pickups, pots, caps, bridge, and tailpiece. In order of change (most to least) here's how they affected tone.

1. Pickups
2. Pots
3. ABR-1 bridge
4. Caps
5. Aluminum Tailpiece
6. Tuners

Everyone raves about how an aluminum stopbar changes the tone, but the difference on my LP was pretty minimal. It made the clean tone much more clear and made the highs more 'singing' when overdriven; that's about it. All of the changes affected tone, but I would only consider the first 3 necessary. In fact on some guitars (like my Explorer) I didn't like how the ABR-1 sounded.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

I agree with Lew, I too like air in my Lester's tone. Another thing to look at is your nut and your saddles. They should be cut correctly from a quality material. Not only will a properly cut nut and saddles give you a slinkier playing feel, they will also allow the instrument to resonate better. My personal preferences in a Paul for nut material is Tusq.

 

[Maximusgordon 2.0]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

If you guys havent tried this yet, then you should. Im talking about the whole wrapping the strings around the top of the tailpiece and by inserting them "backwards". I did it so i would break less strings, and it definently helps in that department, but i SWEAR THAT IT SOUNDS MUCH BETTER TOO! The second i played the guitar i noticed a huge difference, better sustain, and a louder, clearer sound and a fuller and more alive sound, and smoother feel to the guitar. I guess there could be a couple reasons why it would sound better, like it alows the studs to be locked all the way down. To some it up, the guitar feels less constipated.....

 

[papersoul]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Believe it or not, that stringing technique is in the Gibson instruction
manual that nobody ever looks at, inside the case. I think it's also in
the Fender owner's manual as well. If you do it properly, you don't need
locking tuning pegs. On one of my pauls, I changed the tuners to Schaller direct fit Kluson copies. I do like them better, but if a Les Paul is setup and intonated right, you don't need to change the tuners unless they're broken.

I guess you could change some of the tailpieces to aluminum, but the best thing to do when you're thinking of changing something on a classic guitar
like a Gibson is to stop.....go grab a glass of ice water, and throw it in your own face. Then, pick up the guitar and play it, and forget about all the modding nonsense! LOL :laugh2:

That's the spirit...no more C-5s for your Les Pauls!! :laugh2:

 

[papersoul]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Well, I have upgraded the pots, caps, and pickups and maybe I'll stopp there!

The Aluminum vs Tone Pros vs stock might not be that drastic but the wrapping around the tail piece intrigues me like a PRS style bridge.

I even think they sell after market Gibson style bridges utilzing the wrap techniue. Correct? I thought I saw that somewhere.
Sounds like what is behind the PRS concept. Hamer used to do that till they got complaints about intonation I believe.

My Hamer Mirage was similar in that is was strung through the back of the body and the tremola had about 4-5 springs since it was locked down. Talk about big and airy tone!

I wander if there is merit to having a set up like some of the older Schecters that have the strings coming through the body of the guitar?? Interesting.

 

[Jeffrec]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

Changing to Grover locking tuners helped my SG in terms of sustain, but as the other guys have said it's a question of what effect you're looking for.

I know that Clapton had a stop tail put on his old psychedelic SG to improve sustain as well.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

The wrapping the strings over the top of the tailpiece thing is a cool option...

Strung normally, I always adjust the ht. of the stop tailpiece as far down as I can before the strings start to touch the back edge of the tuneomatic bridge. Then I raise it again until there's a little light between the underside of the strings and the back edge of the bridge.

Strings strung over the top allow the tailpiece ht. adjustment screws to be cranked down tight against the top of the body...and the strings don't contact the back edge of the bridge.

The downside, is that the actual string angle behind the saddles is not maximized: that "little light" left between the back edge of the bridge and underside of the strings is more than just a "little light"...it's usually alot of light.

I prefer stringing the tailpiece normally and then adjusting it like I described...but the Billy Gibbons "over the top" method works well too.

Try it and see which tone you prefer, because there are some tonal benefits derived from having the tailpiece snug against the top of the guitar too...even tho the string angle behind the bridge is not as steep as I prefer for firmly seating the strings against the individual saddles.

Plus, the over the top method stratches up the tailpiece.

Lew

 

[dystrust]

Re: Gibson guys: will a change in tuners and bridge make that big a difference?

I've tried the wrap-around on most of my guitars, liked it for some and not for others. My old '77 LP Custom sounded great with the strings wrapped around the tailpiece. My '01 Standard and '96 Explorer sounded really spongey with the strings wrapped around.

The angle that lew mentioned is another reason I love the ABR-1 bridge. This bridge is smaller than a Nashville Tune-o-matic, so I can screw the tailpiece all the way down and still have a nice angle over the bridge.