Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

D

dazco

New member
The situation is that i have a LP Jr special with P90's. I like the tone on 10. But when i turn down i can't get what i want even after trying every imaginable treble bleed circuit (resistor in parallel, trimmer in series trying every degree, cap values from 180pf up to 1000, you name it i tried it) or none at all and 250 and 500k pots. (setteled on 500) So it's not that. The probelm is when i'm on 10 i'm happy with the tone. I use a average amount of OD and play basically classic rock and i like to reoll the volume down to get clean to semi clean tones. thats where i have the problem. Lows go away and tone sounds too nasal and thin as i clean up. Again, lets not go to treble bleed and all that, it's not that. So i decided to try pickups or mag swaps, and obviously trying mag swaps first is the best way to go rather than spend hundreds on pickup as i already did on this axe once.

So in short, what mags would get me a fuller chimier tone when rolling the volume down (once i find the best TB circuit) without sounding thin or nasally and still have a nice cutting "on 10" tone?
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Gibson P-90 have A5's, so you've already got the magnets with the most high end. You solution will probably be in re-wiring it, not in a mag swap. Most other P-90's also have A5's so new PU's may not change much.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

blueman335 said:
Gibson P-90 have A5's, so you've already got the magnets with the most high end. You solution will probably be in re-wiring it, not in a mag swap. Most other P-90's also have A5's so new PU's may not change much.
Click to expand...

I'm not asking for more high end ! Look at my post....thin, nasally, no bass when rolling back.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
I'm not asking for more high end ! Look at my post....thin, nasally, no bass when rolling back.
Click to expand...
Well, if you're happy with the volume and tone at 10, then magnets still aren't going to do what you want. Other magnets will kill off that 'nice cutting "on 10" tone'.

If the tone thins out when you roll down the volume then that's your treble bleed circuit. Get rid of it.

Also, what are your pot values, what is your amp, and what pedals do you have in between?
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

GilmourD said:
Well, if you're happy with the volume and tone at 10, then magnets still aren't going to do what you want. Other magnets will kill off that 'nice cutting "on 10" tone'.

If the tone thins out when you roll down the volume then that's your treble bleed circuit. Get rid of it.

Also, what are your pot values, what is your amp, and what pedals do you have in between?
Click to expand...

It's the pickups that are responsible. Not the electronics, not the amp. You'll just have to trust me on that. Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm asking about magnets and the rest i'm sure of.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
It's the pickups that are responsible. Not the electronics, not the amp. You'll just have to trust me on that. Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm asking about magnets and the rest i'm sure of.
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Yeah, but that's not how it works. If the pickup does what you want with the controls full up and thins out with the volume down that's the treble bleed being configured too aggressively. None of my guitars have a treble bleed and they all get a little darker with the volume rolled down.

I guarantee you that if your pickup is thinning out with the volume rolled down it's not the pickup but the control configuration.

Wanna know why?

roflbot-Pve1-580x332.jpg
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

What i'm trying to tell you is i have tried EVERY configuration. There is no control configuration you can describe that i have not tried. LITERALLY ! I could list every treble bleed config i have tried but i'd wear out my keyboard typing. pot values, tone control values, no tone control. You name it, i've done it. I had this thing almost 2 years and the whole time i have tried everything you can possibly come up with. TRUST ME !

So, if mags are not going to help, end of thread. If thats not the case, opinions please.

GilmourD said:
Yeah, but that's not how it works. If the pickup does what you want with the controls full up and thins out with the volume down that's the treble bleed being configured too aggressively. None of my guitars have a treble bleed and they all get a little darker with the volume rolled down.

I guarantee you that if your pickup is thinning out with the volume rolled down it's not the pickup but the control configuration.

Wanna know why?

roflbot-Pve1-580x332.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
What i'm trying to tell you is i have tried EVERY configuration. There is no control configuration you can describe that i have not tried. LITERALLY ! I could list every treble bleed config i have tried but i'd wear out my keyboard typing. pot values, tone control values, no tone control. You name it, i've done it. I had this thing almost 2 years and the whole time i have tried everything you can possibly come up with. TRUST ME !

So, if mags are not going to help, end of thread. If thats not the case, opinions please.
Click to expand...
Have you tried it with no treble bleed? Just standard wiring?
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Adding an A8 to the A5 will fatten it up, but it's gonna change the tone on 10. However, it sounds like you're running 50's wiring; have you tried modern wiring? Definitely changes the way it cleans up as you roll off the volume control; much darker & fatter vs. 50's. Modern wiring, plus an appropriate treble bleed, if necessary, may get you what you want.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Can you post pictures of the control cavity? It will tell us exactly what you have wired and how, and component values. If the pickup sounds fine on '10", it is not the pickup. Also, you said you tried a modern tone control wiring. Can you post the wiring diagram you followed?

Have you tried experimenting with potentiomer tapers? If not, try that before messing with the pickups.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Have you ever taken either of the pickups out of its routed cavity?

Sit down. I have bad news. I think that you've got ...














... P-100s. :eek:
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Funkfingers said:
Have you ever taken either of the pickups out of its routed cavity?

Sit down. I have bad news. I think that you've got ...














... P-100s. :eek:
Click to expand...

I've been playing guitar since 1971. I've built tons of guitars, I've been refretting my own guitars for 30 years, i'm a electronic tech by trade 40 hours a week for the last 20 years and have built quite a few of my own amps from scratch. Telling me my pickups are P100's would be like telling a BMW mechanic what a oil filter is. Good god man, i even removed the neck pickup and unwound it by 1k to clean it up....yeah, i think they're 90's !

I'm done....can't get a simple answer here no matter how many times i ask. Q: "What magnet might help get me this? A: "you can't dude, it's in the hands". Can no one read between the lines anymore or do you have to write an entire bio on yourself and what you're trying to accomplish to try and avoid all the never ending questions you already know the answer to? Geez....internet forums:yell:
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Well, I'd say try, in this order UOA5, A2 and worse come to worse, a regular ceramic or even an A8.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
The situation is that i have a LP Jr special with P90's. I like the tone on 10. But when i turn down i can't get what i want even after trying every imaginable treble bleed circuit (resistor in parallel, trimmer in series trying every degree, cap values from 180pf up to 1000, you name it i tried it) or none at all and 250 and 500k pots. (setteled on 500) So it's not that. The probelm is when i'm on 10 i'm happy with the tone. I use a average amount of OD and play basically classic rock and i like to reoll the volume down to get clean to semi clean tones. thats where i have the problem. Lows go away and tone sounds too nasal and thin as i clean up. Again, lets not go to treble bleed and all that, it's not that. So i decided to try pickups or mag swaps, and obviously trying mag swaps first is the best way to go rather than spend hundreds on pickup as i already did on this axe once.

So in short, what mags would get me a fuller chimier tone when rolling the volume down (once i find the best TB circuit) without sounding thin or nasally and still have a nice cutting "on 10" tone?
Click to expand...
I'd like to risk of again asking about the obvious, but... did you try the '50s wiring scheme? Also, what brand of pots (Alpha, etc.) what kind (linear, log), and what taper are you using? Did you measure'em to see what's their actual value? You see, the behavior described matches a "faulty", for the lack of a better word, element(s) in the harness, including wiring cable and cold solder joints.

HTH,
 
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Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Tone does thin out (or change) when you roll back, treble bleeds and your underwinding will all have contributed to the effect you are getting.
Essentially, the final effect of rolling the volume is a recipe based on your amp/pickup/drive - the way it thins out can't really be altered without changing the full-up tone which you say you like. Even mag swapping is going to change your 'full up' tone. The recommended A8 will have much more mids/low-end at max too.

The only way I can see forward is to change how you get your tone. Set your amp for your rolled back tone so that works ok is one way. Using a boost/od pedal is another. That way the addition of drive can be eq controlled more.
 
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Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
Telling me my pickups are P100s would be like telling a BMW mechanic what an oil filter is. Good god, man. i even removed the neck pickup and unwound it by 1k to clean it up....yeah, i think they're 90s !
Click to expand...

A good many LP Junior Specials came with P-100s as stock. Those pickups exhibit some of the unpleasant sonic artefacts that you outlined in the OP.

dazco said:
do you have to write an entire bio on yourself and what you're trying to accomplish
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A more precise question is likely to elicit a more precise answer.

For instance, mention of the neck pickup coil unwinding in the OP would have simultaneously confirmed that your guitar was not blighted by P100s and indicated your level of guitar repair skill.

This, in turn, would have saved people like me wasting your valuable time (and, for that matter, my own) with possible solutions.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

dazco said:
I'm done....can't get a simple answer here no matter how many times i ask...Can no one read between the lines anymore or do you have to write an entire bio on yourself and what you're trying to accomplish to try and avoid all the never ending questions you already know the answer to? Geez....internet forums:yell:
Click to expand...


Better questions get better answers. And a better attitude is nice when you're asking for people to help you.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

Funkfingers said:
A more precise question is likely to elicit a more precise answer.

For instance, mention of the neck pickup coil unwinding in the OP would have simultaneously confirmed that your guitar was not blighted by P100s and indicated your level of guitar repair skill.

This, in turn, would have saved people like me wasting your valuable time (and, for that matter, my own) with possible solutions.
Click to expand...
On top of that not getting angry when people tell you that your solution is completely unrelated to your problem would be helpful.

We're just trying to help here, dazco. Unfortunately, you're getting a bit frustrated because the answers aren't fitting what you already have in your head. Trust me, these guys know their stuff. Don't get frustrated. Sometimes finding the RIGHT solution takes a little back and forth. I say that as somebody who spends a lot of time here as a moderator, reading as many threads as time allows, and seeing how the process works even when I'm not directly involved.

I'm kinda surprised ArtieToo hasn't stumbled in here. But LtK and blueman hit the nail on the head, I think. I've never seen a properly wired guitar with no treble bleed lose bass and thin out when the volume gets rolled down. The first thing to get lost is treble, which is why treble bleeds were even thought of, to do the opposite of what you want.
 
Re: Gibson P90 mag swap....which type for my needs?

GilmourD said:
what is your amp and what pedals do you have in between?
Click to expand...

The answer to this question would have helped.

The way that all of the items in the signal chain interact with each other contribute to the overall result. Cable run lengths can become significant. The resistance taper track on pots can deviate from publish specs, creating unexpected side-effects. e.g. On some electric guitar tone controls, the maximum treble roll off seems to occur at 1 and, then, it begins to leak through again slightly at 0, resulting in a mild version of the "cocked wah pedal" filtering effect. (The desirability of this sound is subjective.)
 
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