Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

[PFDarkside]

Subjectively speaking, how would you rank the various Gibson solid body models from darkest/thickest through brightest/thinnest, all else being equal? (Same pickups, same strings and setup, same player, etc)

It seems to me that Les Pauls are near the darker/thicker end, how do the others stack up? I don't have much experience with Gibsons outside of Les Pauls, and while there's no substitute for spending 4 hours in a music shop, I'm curious to see others' opinions.

Also, I'm ver aware that there's probably some 70's Les Pauls nearly as bright as a Strat, and some flying Vs as dark as a Les Paul, I'm just looking for broad, sweeping generalizations.

Les Paul (Standard, Custom, Studio)
Explorer
SG
Flying V
Firebird
etc.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Every guitar is different. There are darker and brighter within one model.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Impossible.

Sorry.

.02

 

[blueman335]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Every guitar is different. There are darker and brighter within one model.

+1. That and Gibson keeps rotating PU's thru models, so over the course of a decade a certain guitar may have several of these sets: '57's, BB's, 498T/490R, 490's, BBP's, Zebras, etc. Those PU's EQ's are different, so the guitar model's tones change with the PU's.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Yeah, as others have said, you really can't do a quantitative comparison or analysis of brightness or darkness broken down by model, at least with the Gibson lineup. There's nothing to say an Explorer will be brighter or darker than an SG or LP when comparing any 2 individual examples.

The brightest Gibson I ever owned was an SG.

The darkest Gibson I ever owned was an SG.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Fair enough...

So is all the talk of Maple caps (standard vs studio), ebony boards (Custom), thinner bodies (SG), bigger planks of wood (Explorer) all basically BS?

Adam, do you still have the dual P90, Bigsby SG? I should have gotten one when they still made the P90 SG... I love that guitar.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Fair enough...

So is all the talk of Maple caps (standard vs studio), ebony boards (Custom), thinner bodies (SG), bigger planks of wood (Explorer) all basically BS?

Eh, I'd hesitate to call it BS.

The truth is that different species of wood do trend towards differences in resonance, mainly due to things like chemical and mineral composition, grain density, rigidity, etc. But those same differences can be almost equally as evident in two samples of wood from the same species - hell, even from the same tree. Plus, wood characteristics are sort of last-in-line when it comes to what determines the sound of an electric guitar anyway. It's really a combination of a ton of factors, so it kind of becomes a wash.

For example, there were those Smartwood LPs from a few years back. They made some LP Specials out of swamp ash. Similarly, Fender has made some Teles out of mahogany. Despite the wood species switcharoo, the ash LP sounded a little different, but was still more like an LP than a Tele, and the mahogany Tele sounds more like a Tele than it approaches sounding like an LP. You know what I mean?

There is some truth to say, switching out a mahogany neck for a rock maple or ebony one in the same guitar and finding a quantifiable difference in timbre (and timber, LAWL), but not enough that one could assume it would sound significantly brighter than another guitar.

Adam, do you still have the dual P90, Bigsby SG? I should have gotten one when they still made the P90 SG... I love that guitar.

Yup! It's the longest-tenured instrument on the wall. Great guitar. One of those rare SGs that actually balance nicely and aren't neck-heavy.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Fair enough...

So is all the talk of Maple caps (standard vs studio), ebony boards (Custom), thinner bodies (SG), bigger planks of wood (Explorer) all basically BS?

Adam, do you still have the dual P90, Bigsby SG? I should have gotten one when they still made the P90 SG... I love that guitar.

Not entirely BS; I'd say they're generalities instead of rules. A typical SG should be brighter than a typical LP, but that may not be the case. I own 4 Gibsons, and I'd order them from brightest to darkest such:

1. ES-335
2. SG
3. Explorer
4. LP Standard

Regarding a P-90 & Bigsby SG, you could always do this:

 

[blueman335]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

So is all the talk of Maple caps (standard vs studio), ebony boards (Custom), thinner bodies (SG), bigger planks of wood (Explorer) all basically BS?

No, wood type and amount is a factor, but is the maple cap on an LP resting on a piece of warm or bright mahogany? What are the PU's? If they're BBP's they'll make the guitar sound brighter, if they're '57's, they'll sound warmer. There's too many variables to make an across-the-board generalization. If Gibson stuck with the same PU's in a model, that would make things more comparable.

 

[DreX]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

I'd say that most of the tonal differences I'd attribute to the shape of the guitar are not in the treble/presence range, but more in the vocalish mid range.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Fair enough...

So is all the talk of Maple caps (standard vs studio), ebony boards (Custom), thinner bodies (SG), bigger planks of wood (Explorer) all basically BS?

Adam, do you still have the dual P90, Bigsby SG? I should have gotten one when they still made the P90 SG... I love that guitar.

I would say its definitely not BS; rather, there are many variables at work here. I've played many Gibsons that sounded great while others sounded dead. My favorite sounding Gibson ever was a Studio with 496R&500T pickups in it...I still kick myself for trading it away.

For bolt on guitars simply change a Maple neck for Mahogany or a Maple board for Rosewood etc. and you can tell a difference both in feel and sound on that guitar. Judging between different guitars is hard because wood is organic and no two pieces will respond exactly the same, but generally speaking Mahogany is warmer/darker than Maple and a Maple board generally has a snappy feel and brighter tone than Rosewood.

And as mentioned before, the Swamp Ash LPs still sounded like LPs not Teles and vice versa for the Mahogany Teles.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

all else being equal? (Same pickups, same strings and setup, same player, etc)

No, wood type and amount is a factor, but is the maple cap on an LP resting on a piece of warm or bright mahogany? What are the PU's? If they're BBP's they'll make the guitar sound brighter, if they're '57's, they'll sound warmer. There's too many variables to make an across-the-board generalization. If Gibson stuck with the same PU's in a model, that would make things more comparable.

You keep mentioning pickups, but I'm saying all else equal. Choose your favorite PAF class pickup set. (Firebird, not withstanding)

I've been very generous scratching my Fender itch over the years. The Gibson itch is starting up again, and I want them all!!! LPs, V, SGs, Explorer, ESs, et al!

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

You keep mentioning pickups, but I'm saying all else equal. Choose your favorite PAF class pickup set. (Firebird, not withstanding)

I've been very generous scratching my Fender itch over the years. The Gibson itch is starting up again, and I want them all!!! LPs, V, SGs, Explorer, ESs, et al!

Ha! I can understand the "I want it all!" lol I've always been intrigued by the Firebird but not even an Epi version has been in the guitar stores I frequent. I keep going back to Strats so I don't want to just order a Firebird without trying one.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

The Gibson itch is starting up again, and I want them all!!! LPs, V, SGs, Explorer, ESs, et al!

Looks like it's off to teh Music Store for 4 hours,then...


Serious,Happy Hunting!

 

[blueman335]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

You keep mentioning pickups, but I'm saying all else equal. Choose your favorite PAF class pickup set.

But PU's are part of it. Gibson has bright and warm PAF's, you can't leave them out of the equation. What sound are you wanting?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

The problem with the question you are asking is that you'd not necessarily call the change in tone a 'brightness' or 'darkness'. Wood and construction do make a difference, but it is more complicated than just saying the tonal shift is an even movement up or down the spectrum. Gluing wood together is like adding bits of coloured cellophane together - the result is based on both bits. Adding a maple cap like with a LP adds in bulk as well as more wood, so there are multiple effects combining. And modifying the shape tends to work on the firmness of the low-end without affecting the highs (V vs explorer for example). A guitar like an SG is much crunchier than a LP, it has much more of the true mids prominent. A LP will have more of the lower mids. Neither might have more highs so be equally bright from that POV, so how would you classify that change??

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

It's not just "warm" or "bright" wood (or "live" or "dead" for that matter). With Gibson LP's, you cant count out the weight relief type/method either. On it's own and probably in combination with the wood underneath. Personally, I don't think Gibson does it just for weight relief and I don't buy for a second that they do it as some sort of technology advancement. They aren't getting the same quality mahogany they did in the 50's and 60's. I think they feel that they can negate some of the wood quality variations and get more consistency between guitars by weight relieving them. And, of course, they are reducing weight in the process. I'm not a Gibson historian, but I think you have to get into the higher priced Pauls before you can get a solid body, or maybe even a traditional chambered guitar (swiss cheese). Most of their Pauls now seem to be either modern relieved or chambered. And the chambered, to me, is closer to a semi-hollow than a solid body. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. Not a LP but I have a chambered Godin that I really like.

I'm not saying that I think all the weight relieved LP's are bad guitars. I don't have a problem with the modern weight relief LP's such that I wouldn't buy one because of the weight relief. I just don't think they are open and completely honest in why they do it. When they claim that it costs more so they do it because it's better, I think that's true to the extent that it's better in terms of better consistency between guitars of the same model. But, it's BECAUSE the wood they are getting/using isn't stellar nor consistent in qualities. Not relative to what they were getting 3 or 4 decades ago. Of course, the Gibson experts can tell me I'm full of chex or whatever else and they could be right. It's just my opinion afterall.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Gibson tones - Relative darkness/brightness between models

Basically, current bandmate plays a Les Paul and Fat Strat, I've been playing my 69 inspired Strat. LP/Strat sounds awesome, blends well. As I posted above I'm just starting the Gibson GAS, but I'd like whatever guitar I add to blend well with his guitars. I was thinking an SG or V has a little more upper mid bite (with the Gibson girth) that would compliment the Les Paul's chunk, and also play nice with the Fat Strat. (Plus I love those two guitars)

I was kind of thinking how Lynyrd Skynyrd would have Rossington on Les Paul, Collins with a Firebird or Explorer and King or Gaines on a Strat. All three distinct voices that blend together.

The real answer is to fill out the massive hole in my guitar collection that is Gibson.