Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

N

NotCardio

New member
I'm sure I'm going to get differing opinions on this, but I'll ask anyway.

If you had a Gibson LP and an Epi LP, both of the same type (meaning both have a maple cap) and put the same pickups and electronics in both, would you expect to hear a noticable difference in tone between the two?

I realize that the Gibson probably has a thicker maple cap, but is it enough to produce a noticably different tone? Is the mahogany that Gibson uses of any significantly different density or grain quality that would affect tone?

I'm not talking about fit & finish (unless it affects tone) or playability, or tuning stability, or anything else but tone.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

If you took two Gibson LPs with the same pups in them, you would probably hear a difference in their tone. Every chunk of wood will sound a bit different. Several years ago I bought 5 new Gibson LPs exactly alike (same model, woods, pups, colors, etc.) and each sounded different than the others. So, yes, you would probably hear a difference between the Gibson and the Epi.

You may or may not hear a difference between different thicknesses of maple caps. Depends on how sensitive your ears are.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

It's hard to make sweeping generalizations but the one thing I've noticed after owning 2 epiphones (one was a tribute with the full maple cap), 2 agiles (one with a full maple cap), and 1 gibson (a chambered studio with a full maple cap), and playing several others, is that no, I can't make any sweeping generalizations. Many gibsons off the shelf seem to me to have more low midrange but that could even just be due to the fact that gibson makes a 1 piece neck and Epi AFAIK does not, and Gibson uses those 300K pots on SO many guitars. So I'll never get to do a fair comparison. Not even getting into headstock pitch (14° vs 17°). There's just no way to compare them evenly, they are different guitars with the same body shape.

But yes the mahogany used on both are most likely different species of wood or at the very least grown in different regions and thus subject to different climate conditions. Epiphone uses a "mahogany" that is grown in the southeast pacific region, possibly Sapele, and if you look many epiphones do have the long dark streaks that are characteristic of that wood. It's wetter over there than other places known for mahogany and it has to have some effect on how the wood grows.

Really though you can plug in 5 different Gibson Les Pauls and hear noticeable differences so this is really a horse that does not need to be beaten further because it has kicked off a loooong time ago.
 
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Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

All guitars sound different, even with similar tonewoods and electronics.

Two different animals.

One is just a more affordable version of the other.

 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Of course, Gibsons are going to sound better than Epi's. They use higher quality materials and on average have better workmanship. The question is whether that difference is worth paying the additional money. Gibsons are often 4 or 5 times as much as the comparable Epi. But you're not getting a guitar that sounds 4 or 5 times as good. You're getting a 'better' sounding guitar. The law of diminishing returns takes effect. For some players, only a Gibson will do. If you have the cash, go for it. Most players can't put $2,000 or $3,000 into a single guitar, due to other competing expenses, like wife, kids, rent, car payment, etc. Low-end Gibsons are big sellers, as players like to have the Gibson name on a headstock, but the company cuts a lot of corners with those. You're not going to pay $700 and get the same quality guitar you will for a $2,400 one.

In the 8 years I've been on this forum, I've seen many people ask about and talk about putting Duncan's, DiMarzio's, Gibsons and other aftermarket PU's in their imports (many of them Epi's). It's the single biggest thing you can do to improve the sound of most imports. For $150+, you can make an import sound a whole lot better. Will it sound as good as the average Gibson? No. Will it sound better than the average Epi? Yes. It's an affordable solution many players have done.

In the 1990's there was a bigger difference between Epi's and Gibsons. The manufacture was contracted out and there wasn't a lot of consistency. Back then, cheap materials were the norm for imports and the average Epi had terrible HB's, no-name tuners, and cheap mini-pots. Epi started stepping up their game in the early 2000's and built their own factory. Consistency improved and Grover tuners and full-size pots were standard on most models. When the world economy collapsed in 2008, things got very competitive in the electric guitar market as customers looked for 'value', meaning higher quality at lower prices. In 2010 Epi began a PU upgrade program, and better models have either Probuckers or Gibson HB's. The difference today between high-end Epi's and low-end Gibsons isn't nearly what it used to be. You can get a new Epi LP Std for $500, that is far better than the ones they made 15 years ago, and it doesn't cost any more than they did back then.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Actually, I think a significant part of aftermarket PU's wind up in mid-price import guitars. Many people with expensive guitars don't want to change them from stock, but with a cheaper guitar it's not that much of an issue, and it will improve the sound. With the electric guitar market being so competitive over the last few years, more manufacturers have been putting upgraded PU's in their guitars and at some point the demand for aftermarket PU's will be impacted. There's also increased competition from high quality foreign-made PU's, including Asia. Fishman is currently developing electric guitar PU's that are far more consistent than any manufacturer has been able to do up to this point. Things are in transition now. Millions of people playing electric guitar all over the world, and players are more knowledgeable about gear than ever. Lots of money involved. It'll be interesting to see how all of this plays out in the long run. Whatever happens, better-sounding PU's will be more common.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

The wood issue is complex, so its not just a case of one company sourcing better wood.......maybe lighter might yield more vintage results on average, but as others have said its not guaranteed. Same with 1 vs multipiece. It could be the very act of adding the extra bits into a body that overcomes the tonal deficiencies present in individual bits.
Then ther eis the issue of 'better'. As there are as many definitions of this as there are players it is an entirely meaningless axiom.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Guitardoc is the one so far who has most closely answered the question I asked. I was only referring to the wood for the most part. And I hadn't thought of the one-piece vs mult-piece aspect, but I guess I was including that. If Gibson uses one-piece necks and Epi uses two, and in your opinion that has a significant effect on tone, then that's a valid point. And just to add, I can play several Gibsons of the same model and feel a difference in the necks, even with their tighter QC. But I hardly ever play any plugged in, so I can't really speak to the tone issue. And if they use different nut materials, or different bridges, and you think that effects tone enough to hear it, then that would be valid also. I didn't realize they had different headstock angles either.

And notice that I didn't say anythng about 'better', because that is totally subjective.

I haven't been on here very long, but I'm on other boards and I should have known that this was a dead horse, but I'd never heard the question asked in this specific way. Yeah, I've heard the Epi vs Gibson debate before, but never about just the wood used and joint techniques and their effect on tone.

I'm sure I'll be resurrecting a couple of other deceased equines in the near future, so I apologize in advance.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

And before somebody points out that I've been on here 2 1/2 years, that's when I joined, but I hardly ever came here. I've just started frequenting this place recently. The depths to which you guys are into pickups is way beyond me, but I'm here to glean what general useful knowledge I can. I'll probably never get into building or rebuilding my own pickups, but you never know.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

the wood question can pretty much be taken as a given, so maybe some of us took that for granted.

for me, it boils down to something a guy from ESP said. people were losing their minds when ESP started to put out some of the signature models as LTD with a lower pricing. if the expensive ESP model was maple, people were going nuts when the LTD version was maple as well. wow, I can get the same guitar! well, not quite. there is another thread going on right now about wood, and it comes down to the selection. even two pieces of maple from the same tree might not be the same quality. the Epiphone factory in China isn't going to have the same wood as the Gibson factory in Nashville. moisture content, grade of the selection, how many pieces for a single guitar...all factors. I saw a photo of a Gibson Kramer Pacer Classic that someone sanded down and the body had so many pieces of wood that it looked like a Rubik's cube. put that up against an identical guitar made in the same factory from a single piece of wood and you will hear a difference. anyway, while the people looking at LTD signature models were thinking they were going to get a comparable model for much less, a dude from ESP stepped up and laid it all out....sure, technically that is maple...but the best selections of maple go to the ESP models. that's why not all maple is bright. some can sound closer to alder...some of that is the actual wood and some is in the construction. and outside of the wood, there is still the assembly process. that Asian guitar-making market is doing pretty good these days. and Gibson has had it's share of QC issues over the years. we can always go around and around in theory on the internet and maybe deal with guys that have played both (I have and I think the Gibson has been better of the ones I've played, which is a smaller percentage compared to many of the other guys here)...but the best thing will always be to get into a store that has both and let your own hands and ears tell you what you feel and hear.
 
Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

I asked the same question once in a thread, if wood actually matters. I guess I came to the conclusion that it absolutely can. But it's all about HOW the wood affects the string vibration etc, so in that sense it doesn't matter where it comes from, or where it's grown. Cheap or expensive, the wood should be judged on it's own (when tone is concerned. Looks might be a different thing).

So the phrase tonewood means absolutely nothing to me. I don't think the wood has a tone of it's own in an electric guitar, but it definately affects the guitar as a whole. :)
 
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Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Generally speaking, an electric guitar is the sum of its parts. Occasionally, an exceptional guitar manages to be more than the sum of its parts. If you encounter a guitar like this, buy it - regardless of the brand name on the headstock.

We could talk Gibson versus Epiphone, Fender versus Squier, PRS versus PRS SE, whatever. Yes, each variant of the same essential design will differ. Whichever sounds right for the music that you are making today is the one that is right today. (This is not necessarily going to be the more expensive version.)

I derive just as much enjoyment from my Seymourised Hamer XT and PRS SE guitars as I do from my Gibson Les Pauls.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Both will sound good, imo. But yeah, every guitar will sound diff even among the same brand and model..
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

One of the reasons I initially asked this question is that sometimes, I can love the feel of a guitar, it's playability, ergonomics, etc., but I'm never sure if my dissatisfaction with it's tone is due to pickup/electronics/hardware factors, or if it's due to the guitar itself. Is it a lousy hunk of wood that just happens to be carved into an incredibly pleasing shape? I'm always torn as to how much money to throw at it to try to correct the 'problem' or to achieve the desired results. And then whre do I start? If I get new pickups and that doesn't do it, is it something else, or are they just not the right pickups, since I probably won't know what those pickups are supposed to sound like, or at least what they'd sound like in a 'better' guitar?
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

Gibsons quality control is very random, unless you are buying custom shop. That said, two guitars w the same pups will sound very, very similar. The andertons do some great blindfold taste tests on YouTube, but it's always with stock components. It's not exactly apples to apples, but worth watching.
 
Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

NotCardio said:
If you had a Gibson LP and an Epi LP, both of the same type (meaning both have a maple cap)
Click to expand...

Do Epiphones ever have maple caps (not counting the Elite line)? I thought they were all veneer.

Speaking of Epi LPs, I just NGD'd a Epi Les Paul Florentine in black... yes. I had wanted a Les Paul with F-holes one since I was a teenager, and I suspect this one is a lot better made than those they had offered in the 90's.
 
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Re: Gibson vs Epi LP tone question

DreX said:
Do Epiphones ever have maple caps (not counting the Elite line)? I thought they were all veneer.
Click to expand...

yeah the tribute series do have the full maple cap.
I had one and you could clearly see it in the pickup cavity.
 
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