@#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

[david kornblatt]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

I love Gibsons, but I have been on the "outside-looking-in" for the most part. I will continue to be so, unless I win the Lottery.

That said, tons of energy is spent searching for Gibson "this", and Fender "that" doesn't not make for better songwriting and composition. To dismiss the Big Two is utterly ignorant. By 1970's standards we live in a Golden Age of instruments and gear. You do not need a USA Gibson anymore, if you cannot afford a new one.

There was also a time, where there was little choice between the $40 Sears or Woolworth's guitar, and a Les Paul/Strat.

Gibson needs to be more creative at the top so its employees can grow the company. Is Gibson under the same economic union pension distress that may send GM and Ford into bankruptcy?

The used market is where it is at...but at least it is not as hard as buying an amp, IMHO!"""

IN RESPONSE TO YOU i will say you need to see the movie who lilled the electric car...hint it was g m
Gm has effectively killed itself it
doesnt care about what people want to buy only ...it cares about micro management

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

What are real Americans?
Admittedly I'm looking at you guys from the outside, but are you not all immigrants?
So a factory with real Americans would have to be run by Chief Broken String with his Assistant Chiefs Endless Sustain and his squaw Bone Nut.
:usa1:

Hell YEAAAAAHH!!!:6::smokin::chairfall

 

[callous_frigid_chill]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

No, I am not an immigrant. That argument is stupid.

 

[Stratcat]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Hi there - new member here



Bit of a generalisation that.

My Tokai Love Rock LS150 ('59 rep) comes with one piece mahogany body (lightweight but no need for weight relief holes); one piece deep tenon neck; solid AA/AAA flame maple top; nitro finish; lightweight ally tailpiece; Switchcraft jack; CTS pots; Sprague condensors; Western Electric wiring etc. All for £650 - the price in the UK of a LP special faded and half the price of a Standard. What would I have to pay for a similarly spec’d Gibson?

IMHO, this Tokai Les Paul with a set of Duncan pups, sounds just as good or better than any 5 to 6 Thousand Dollar Historic Gibson Les Paul.:smokin:

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

IMHO

Especially in this thread, I find nothing about your opinion "humble."

 

[Jacques]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

No, I am not an immigrant. That argument is stupid.

Hey Callous, don't take it personally! (and ask your older family members when they came to America...).
I was aiming at the guitar purists who think a guitar assembled in the USA is always better than one from abroad. There is no difference between guitars assembled by say a Vietnamese working in a factory in Vietnam and an American citizen of Vietnamese origin working in a factory in the USA (provided of course both factories are of modern standards, use the right materials and are led by qualified management).

A few decades back American guitars were top of the world but that had nothing to do with them being American. There just wasn't the right know how in the rest of the world nor a flourishing musical climate of jazz, blues, country and rock 'n roll. Only the States and to a lesser extend Great Britain could provide that.

Today in our global village the whole world rocks! Any luthier can produce great guitars (with Seymour Duncans, ofcourse...)

(BTW I play three great American made guitars)

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

At the first LI Forum Get Together we compared all the guitars and pickups to an old lp with PAFs (54 conversion to 59 specs). Nothing was really close, Jeffrec's LP Custom with Ant's was probably the closest if memory serves me.

That's for the post Scott, that's VERY interesting!

Hey Callous, don't take it personally! (and ask your older family members when they came to America...).

As an aside:

Jacques there are many families that have been in the US for a few hundred years. Not all are recent immigrants. Also many intermarried with the Native Americans.

Luke

 

[neosadist]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

i was looking into those les paul GT's cause they have some badass features, but theyre $2500! theres no way its got $500 more worth of features than the LP standard. its rediculous. standards are overpriced as it is. ahhhhh. .....anybody wanna make a donation? :laugh2: oh and in case anybody was wondering, this all came about cause i saw the black one for the first time. the others look kinda cheesy with the flames, but the black is much more subtle.

Well honestly that Les Paul looks absolutely beautiful and probably has the best features money can buy. However, I think that the guitar is a bit over-priced. Honestly, if you can build the same thing at Warmoth, then it's overpriced, since Warmoth themselves are overpriced. I'll check back in with you guys.

EDIT: Ok, warmoth has almost all the options except the set neck. I think that might be part of the reason why. As for the setup, that's one of the few guitars I think I could buy and not have to modify. However, it still does not have Seymour Duncans installed on it, so I'd still have to modify the dang thing, but at least the rest of the electronics are there. But buying a $2,500 guitar just to modify it? That's dumb. I'd probably go with something else that already had my options, or something slightly cheaper and modify the thing myself. In this scenario, I'd get one of these:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Jack-Daniels-EX-Electric-Guitar?sku=511408
While it wouldn't work where I play guitar (i.e. church), $450 for the guitar would allow me to modify it infinitely and still never pay $2,500. It's set neck, ebony fretboard, mahogany body and neck, so it's already got what I need. I'm thinking even Warmoth could re-paint it jet black (i.e. without JD artwork), then I could put the SD pickups in it that I want, and one master vol push/pull, one master tone push/pull, and I'm basically done.

 

[JeffB]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

IMHO, this Tokai Les Paul with a set of Duncan pups, sounds just as good or better than any 5 to 6 Thousand Dollar Historic Gibson Les Paul.:smokin:

Have you played this particular Tokai against these 5K Historics?

Not saying it won't compete...it very well may...but I also wouldn't make a blanket statement like that and say it would without testing it myself.

Methinks the smoke should be blowing out the backside of your smiley

 

[Rushfan2112]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Have you played this particular Tokai against these 5K Historics?

Not saying it won't compete...it very well may...but I also wouldn't make a blanket statement like that and say it would without testing it myself.

Methinks the smoke should be blowing out the backside of your smiley

Agreed. I don't think a Tokai will ever play like a Gibson, even though they are similar. Now, I've never played a Tokai, but my friend with an R8 or R9 (I'm un-edumacated on Gibson lingo ) said that nothing--no Edwards, Burny, Greco, Tokai, really compare to his Gibson. They're similar, but they're not on the same level.

 

[JeffB]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Agreed. I don't think a Tokai will ever play like a Gibson, even though they are similar. Now, I've never played a Tokai, but my friend with an R8 or R9 (I'm un-edumacated on Gibson lingo ) said that nothing--no Edwards, Burny, Greco, Tokai, really compare to his Gibson. They're similar, but they're not on the same level.

I would not say that a high end LS320 from Tokai or a Edwards/ESP Navigator would not compare to a Historic...I've never played one...so *I* wont make an assumption like that. But no doubt there is absolutely no comparison when it came to my R8 (or any historic I've played) and any MIJ import I've handled. Not even in the same ball park.

 

[callous_frigid_chill]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Hey Callous, don't take it personally! (and ask your older family members when they came to America...).
I was aiming at the guitar purists who think a guitar assembled in the USA is always better than one from abroad. There is no difference between guitars assembled by say a Vietnamese working in a factory in Vietnam and an American citizen of Vietnamese origin working in a factory in the USA (provided of course both factories are of modern standards, use the right materials and are led by qualified management).

A few decades back American guitars were top of the world but that had nothing to do with them being American. There just wasn't the right know how in the rest of the world nor a flourishing musical climate of jazz, blues, country and rock 'n roll. Only the States and to a lesser extend Great Britain could provide that.

Today in our global village the whole world rocks! Any luthier can produce great guitars (with Seymour Duncans, ofcourse...)

(BTW I play three great American made guitars)

I didn't take it personally. I'm just being a jerk.:banana:

 

[markatards]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Agreed. I don't think a Tokai will ever play like a Gibson, even though they are similar. Now, I've never played a Tokai, but my friend with an R8 or R9 (I'm un-edumacated on Gibson lingo ) said that nothing--no Edwards, Burny, Greco, Tokai, really compare to his Gibson. They're similar, but they're not on the same level.
Given that Tokai in the late 70's/early 80s were rumoured to have dissected a number of original 'bursts - measuring everything and, given the spec I already posted on my mid range LS150 (My Tokai Love Rock LS150 - '59 rep - comes with one piece mahogany body (lightweight but no need for weight relief holes); one piece deep tenon neck; solid AA/AAA flame maple top; nitro finish; lightweight ally tailpiece; Switchcraft jack; CTS pots; Sprague condensors; Western Electric wiring ) I wonder what might account for the difference? The typically poor Japanese workmanship?

Tokai are well known for sourcing the best woods. Those who own and play both top end Tokais and Gibson Historics obviously know what makes a good guitar and appreciate both. Some prefer the Toks because the carving of the maple top is more vintage accurate. Given the price differential between my £650 Tokai and a Gibson historic - I'm more than happy.

Can anyone who owns both comment?

 

[JeffB]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

The typically poor Japanese workmanship?

are you being facetious here? The MIJs have great workmanship, IME.

Tokai are well known for sourcing the best woods.

I think this is where there could be alot of difference. It's plainly obvious to me looking at all the MIJ/MIK/MIC "mahogany" bodied guitars I've had, that while it may indeed be mahogany, it's not the same mahogany (or "cut") I'm seeing in USA guitars from Gibson, Hamer, PRS, Dean, etc. The grain is different. My tokai has been the closest for grain appearance, but is streaky and has sections with little to no grain. The Edwards had even less grain (and the poly was so thick it was difficult to see in the first place). The MIK/MIC is noticeably more poorly grained than the MIJ stuff, and then it's a pretty big jump from MIJ to MIA. Take a look in the control cavities and compare USA to import unfinished wood color. In addition, My Edwards and Tokai did not/do not have the acoustic resonance, volume, or clarity in tone of the Gibbos I had/have when comparing them back to back. They sound different. Compressed, darker (comparitively). stifled, so to speak. So have the Epi Elites I've played (paula or SG) compared to their USA counterparts in the shop (though the MIJ epis seem to have better wood grain).

Given the price differential between my £650 Tokai and a Gibson historic

This is where I think the import fans really have some ammo. No doubt you are getting a STELLAR value with your typical low to mid price MIJ.

My biggest issues with MIJs have been feel (and aforementioned tone). I've played several vintage Gibsons, as well as a bunch of Historics, and thats where the huge discrepancy is for me. Even a well done production Gibbo feels vastly different to me than a import. A LS75 is not built any differently than a LS320 other than wood & electronics quality (and may or may not have fret edge binding). They have the same dimensions/top carve, etc..nearly every Tokai Love Rock Standard is based on a 59 Les Paul. There are a few 58 derived Tokais from what I understand, and then of course there are the customs, specials, blah blah blah.

I've got a great Tokai that is an excellent paula in the general sense. It does not compare in sustain or tone to my excellent gibsons, though it is quite good. But I always seem to qualify that with "for the price" it seems. Then to top it off, there's the whole "feel" thing. Just the board feels/plays different cos of the cheaper Tokai inlays. Is it bad? To me it is, cos it's not what I'm used to. MIJs do not seem to have the same "density"..both in tone or feel. Does that make it bad? Maybe not for everyone, but to me it does. Poly feels weird (maybe nitro would help, but the nitro top on my Edwards was far and away different than any nitro I've experienced from any USA made guitar).

I won't begrude anyone else what they like, and maybe I just have crappy luck, but I did the import thing and was not satisfied. Would I buy another? Absolutely! *if* my budget required it. At the same time, if I had the $ to spend on a LS320 or Navigator, I'd spend a few hundred more and get the real deal. Once you get to a certain price point, why not buy the real thing? whats the benefit (unless one has some kind of "political boycott" mentality) BUT when ya want a good Les Paul, and can only spend $700...there is where I think the MIJs really come into their own.

YMMV
IMO
IME
yada yada yada

 

[markatards]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

JeffB. I’d hoped to quote your reply in full but the 4000 character limit would not allow me to without overly shortening or distorting your post. But in response :


1. I’ve no axe to grind (pardon the pun). I’m not an import fan as such. I currently own and have owned guitars made in the US, UK, Japan. Taiwan, Korea and mainland China. Some of the dogs were early Asian copies; some were the US originals.

2. Money is not an issue. I’ve sufficient funds to buy any guitar as long as I can justify the expenditure given my modest talent. Having said that I don’t pass up what I consider to be a bargain or buy just on the basis of a name - but yes I’d happily buy a Gibson if I felt it was worth it..

3.

are you being facetious here? The MIJs have great workmanship, IME

Yes a little humour - too subtle? Something along the lines of nothing feels/sounds like a Gibson. Nothing feels like a Cadillac which is why most discerning execs buy Lexus.

4. I agree that the inlays in my almost bottom of the line Tokai LS65/75 look little better than the Epi copies and the sound to me is excellent but a little compressed. However the inlays are infinitely preferable to the limeade/urine coloured abominations in a recent LP Classic I spotted in a local store. My LS150 is a different animal. Inlays are nicely aged pearloid and the unplugged sound is resonant; sustains; woody and airy etc just as a good LP should be. BTW the LS150 is a strange animal. Tokai had ordered in a stock of flamed maple for their high end models. When the flame wasn’t judged up to scratch they built a limited number of 150s with one piece body, long tenons and nitro finish plus top end electronics and hardware for a limited period in 2005. Only ‘downside’ is the subtle flame.

5. Tonewoods. I’m confused. Mahogany is a native North American species? If not -how does the US built guitar employ a better mahogany that a non-US?. I quote one satisfied customer. "I know this has been discussed here already, but I didn't really get to an objective conclusion in the end... how much better than the african mahogany used in tokai love rock models such as ls70, 80, 125, 135, 145s, 230, etc.. is the honduras mahogany used on higher end models (ls-380), I'm talking tone wise, resonance wise, looks, weight, anything you can think of. I ask this because the ls-145s I recently purchased with a one piece back and neck, of african mahogany, is the most resonant instrument I've ever played, the most amazing tone... even unpluged the guitar almost echoes seriously, I found myself thinking "this thing sounds like it as a reverb on" I was playing it unplugged, so how much better can honduras mahogany really be? "

Indeed, why do Gibson drill weight relief holes in their superior mahogany?

6.

MIJs do not seem to have the same "density"..both in tone or feel

Must be the short tenons and weight relief holes Gibson use.

7. I’m not arguing with you. Just hoping to persuade others to keep an open mind before oarting with their hard-earned.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

5. Tonewoods. I’m confused. Mahogany is a native North American species? If not -how does the US built guitar employ a better mahogany that a non-US?. I quote one satisfied customer. "I know this has been discussed here already, but I didn't really get to an objective conclusion in the end... how much better than the african mahogany used in tokai love rock models such as ls70, 80, 125, 135, 145s, 230, etc.. is the honduras mahogany used on higher end models (ls-380), I'm talking tone wise, resonance wise, looks, weight, anything you can think of. I ask this because the ls-145s I recently purchased with a one piece back and neck, of african mahogany, is the most resonant instrument I've ever played, the most amazing tone... even unpluged the guitar almost echoes seriously, I found myself thinking "this thing sounds like it as a reverb on" I was playing it unplugged, so how much better can honduras mahogany really be?"

Pretty simple. You're making the mistake of assuming that every piece of North American mahogany is the same. There are no two pieces of wood from the SAME TREE that are the same. You can have great tonewood and lousy tonewood on the same tree. The Gibson Historics use the best pieces, and USA on down gets what's left.

Indeed, why do Gibson drill weight relief holes in their superior mahogany?

Mistake #2 -- assuming a heavy piece of wood automatically sounds bad and that a light piece of wood automatically sounds good. It ain't so. If you have a heavy piece of wood that sounds good but the customer wants a lighter LP, the solution is obvious -- weight relief holes that are small so they don't affect the tone.

 

[markatards]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Precisely Zhangliqun

Blanket statements claiming that US manufacturers use better woods than non-US is meaningless.

 

[neosadist]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Come on guys, who cares? Either you like Gibson and therefore you buy one, or you don't and you don't buy one. No one's making anyone buy their guitars.

 

[JeffB]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

Blanket statements claiming that US manufacturers use better woods than non-US is meaningless.

I did not necc mean US wood was better, as tone is subjective. But it is *different*. I think this is where the difference very well may be tonally.

My post was not meant to be argumentative..just saying I've been there..done that and based on what I've experienced/ learned..no thanks

I don't think the MIJs are bad...or worse, necc for everyone. However, they are not the *same*..and for *ME*.. not the same = worse. I'll pay top $ for a guitar that does everything I want. By trying to save some $ , in the long run ended up paying the same $ or more buying sev different imports cos each one would fall short in some major way or another.

If I could find a MIJ or MIK or MIC that feels the same or better, plays the same or better and sounds the same or better as the Gibsons I've owned...or Hamer USA, or PRS, or DeanUSA , I'd buy it regardless of what the headstock says, or where it was made. Simple as that. If someone wants to send me an LS320 to try, I'd be glad to give it an objective/unbiased review Though I may not be glad to give it back after I'm done

 

[MikeS]

Re: @#$&$&@ gibson, why so much $$$

The key is to have confidence in your ability to select the guitar that is perfect for you. For some, that means tone, for others, feel, and for a few it means a finish or a name on the headstock. Personally, as long as I am confident that I know what I am looking for, my motivations should be of no one else's concern until the purchase is made on their dime.