Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Form Stewmac:
Gibson's standard 24-3/4" scale is a compensated length based on a true scale of about 24-9/16"

It appears they are centering the treble side of the bridge on 24 9/16"(or 24.5625). Half of that is 12 9/32"(12.28), which is where the 12th fret appears to be placed.
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Interesting nugget there, ParameterMan.

You wouldn't by chance remember exactly where on the StewMac site you found that, would you?
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

i always thought it was a compensated scale length based on 24 5/8" but the idea is still the same
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

I remembered that American manufacturers have clung, unwisely, to imperial measurements, rejecting the SI system.QUOTE]

:poed: OK Sorry, but you've struck a nerve. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!!

YES, and here I have no complaint...

You are probably right later in your post about conversion factors, and how it may have happened, and I have seen this problem occur in engineers' calculations. And the Intonation problem on the Gibsons of late has been well identified by some master luthiers both sides of the Atlantic. No argument there. :)

HOWEVER, and yes I saw where you're posting from! As 1st a Brit, where incidentally the IMPERIAL measuring system was invented/standardised, and 2nd working in an industry where we use both ALL the time, and both work just as well for us. I have to defend the Imperial system.

We Brits built an Empire, and half the industry around it on Imperial. We also helped a lot of people around the World using it to standardise things like railways, when Europe was all over the place with theirs.

Actually in certain respects, measurements and particularly when using hyper accurate guages, Imperial is often far more accurate. Believe it or not but a lot of guages in engineering are twice the diameter and more accurate in Imperial than their metric equivalent.

All the CNC's that I have access to don't care, so if there is a incorrect factor it shouldn't be the machine, but the programmer.

If you doubt what I say, well. In my biz we go from 0-90mph and back again 25 times per second. Sometimes we do it faster. Yes we use metric, but Imperial still works fine for us.

Oh, if you didn't know. The US military did a study on turning completely metric. The costs would have run into 'Billions' so they didn't.

I like the Foot, Yard, Mile, Inch, they work fine for me! It was good enough for Isambard Kingdom Brunel!

Ditch the Pound and I'll be invoicing in US$!

The US may have broken off the chains of Imperialist oppression, but they knew a good thing when they saw it!

:soapbox: :usa2: :usa: What No Union Jack???
 
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Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Sorry folks! Normal service resumed, but I jsut had to post, and couldn't bring myself to hit delete!
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Looking at the 3rd picture, it looks like the 12th fret is exactly 12.25. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the problem is... :banghead:

If you look at the second picture, which is the one that shows the measurement in inches, you will see that it is NOT exactly at the 12.25 point, but several mm away from that, towards the bridge.
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Form Stewmac:


It appears they are centering the treble side of the bridge on 24 9/16"(or 24.5625). Half of that is 12 9/32"(12.28), which is where the 12th fret appears to be placed.

If you use sensible metric measurements rather than archaic ones you will find that actually the 12th fret is placed very slightly over 312mm from the nut andd that this gives a scale length of 624mm. 12.28mm is actually 311.912mm. It is very obvious from the photos that the 624mm point is centred on the middle of the intonation slot. As the saddle does not need to be set any significant amount forward of the 624mm point it is pointless doing this; you just lose half the adjustment range and limit how far back the saddles can move.

If the 12th fret is at 312mm, the front of the E string saddle slot should be at around 624mm. As you can see, it is actually at 620mm

There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread (yes I was aware that Gibsons generally are 24.75" scale but that is clearly not the case with these), but the bottom line is that this guitar cannot be set so that the intonation is accurate. The saddle position as shown in the photograph is exactly where it needs to be for the guitar to play in tune but there is no further retreat adjustment on any of the others.

This is not an isolated instance; it is one of several Melody makers I've worked on in the last couple of weeks and they all have the same problem.

It's worse when you consider that the intonation tempering I use usually results in the saddles sitting slightly forward of the position yielded by 12th fret intonation.

Sorry if I've upset Gibson devotees but my opinion of Gibsons is unchanged.

We are dealing here with a manufacturer so dim, so devoid of any concept of quality control that they persisted in installing the four core cable connecting the switch on their Les Pauls to the control compartment with the lead wire for the shielding snipped off and disconnected for a period of at least eight years after I drew their attention to the fault in a fax sent to Gibsons management in 1993 (which they totally ignored and didn't even have the courtesy to respond to).

The result of this idiotic mistake is that Les Paul buyers were left with four lengths of aerial flapping around inside their guitar picking up radiant noise from every fluorescent, neon or CRT (in fact it was even worse than that because the disconnected screen formed a floating potential alongside the unscreened wires, intensifying the noise).
 
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Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

I remembered that American manufacturers have clung, unwisely, to imperial measurements, rejecting the SI system.QUOTE]

:poed: OK Sorry, but you've struck a nerve. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!!

YES, and here I have no complaint...

You are probably right later in your post about conversion factors, and how it may have happened, and I have seen this problem occur in engineers' calculations. And the Intonation problem on the Gibsons of late has been well identified by some master luthiers both sides of the Atlantic. No argument there. :)

HOWEVER, and yes I saw where you're posting from! As 1st a Brit, where incidentally the IMPERIAL measuring system was invented/standardised, and 2nd working in an industry where we use both ALL the time, and both work just as well for us. I have to defend the Imperial system.

We Brits built an Empire, and half the industry around it on Imperial. We also helped a lot of people around the World using it to standardise things like railways, when Europe was all over the place with theirs.

Actually in certain respects, measurements and particularly when using hyper accurate guages, Imperial is often far more accurate. Believe it or not but a lot of guages in engineering are twice the diameter and more accurate in Imperial than their metric equivalent.

All the CNC's that I have access to don't care, so if there is a incorrect factor it shouldn't be the machine, but the programmer.

If you doubt what I say, well. In my biz we go from 0-90mph and back again 25 times per second. Sometimes we do it faster. Yes we use metric, but Imperial still works fine for us.

Oh, if you didn't know. The US military did a study on turning completely metric. The costs would have run into 'Billions' so they didn't.

I like the Foot, Yard, Mile, Inch, they work fine for me! It was good enough for Isambard Kingdom Brunel!

Ditch the Pound and I'll be invoicing in US$!

The US may have broken off the chains of Imperialist oppression, but they knew a good thing when they saw it!

:soapbox: :usa2: :usa: What No Union Jack???

You may want to remember that I'm British myself.

Sure imperial measurements worked for Brunel; the Romans built an empire using Roman numerals (although their architects were greek and used geometry) but the fact is that every branch of science uses the metric SI system because of it's consistency and accuracy of resolution.

Even imperial measuring tools use thousands of an inch instead of eighths, sixteenths etc.

Isn't it ironic though that computer memory sizes are based on a progressive doubling as the imperial system was based on a progressive halving...
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Form Stewmac:


It appears they are centering the treble side of the bridge on 24 9/16"(or 24.5625). Half of that is 12 9/32"(12.28), which is where the 12th fret appears to be placed.

I wonder how they are calculating this?

Are they basing the scale on 24 3/4 and then cutting the slots based on a contracted scale of 24 9/16?

Haven't they worked out yet that there is no advantage in doing this; it's almost exactly the same as adding 3/16" to your scale length.

I flirted with this idea back in 1976, until I realised that it was pointless and that contracting the whole scale has exactly the same effect as shifting the bridge away from the fingerboard by a fixed amount...:banghead:
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

cant see anything wrong from the pics.
from the nut to the 12th fret is approx. 312mm
from the nut to the center of the bridge is approx 624mm

You don't see anything wrong with that?

It doesn't occur to you that it should be the front of the saddle slot at the 624mm point, not the middle?

i don't think the bridge is perfectly placed for 24.5" scale. based on the pics, the center of the bridge is a little bit more than 24.5"

the bottom line is that the guitar is only just in tune with the saddles cranked all the way back, and that is not good.
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Gibson's are 24.75" scale not 24.5 and judging from your pick the saddle is 627mm which is 24.68", pretty close to the 24.75" scale that is being used.

I have noticed that the ABR-1 style bridges, for whatever reason need the saddle cranked further to the back than the Nashville style. Unfortunately I don't have any really good pics of the ABR-1 bridges that I own, here's one that you can see the saddle farther back but the guitar is still properly intonated.



Now here are two Nashville bridges, perfectly intonated again. Look at the placement of the saddles on these.

Pretty close isn't good enough IB. An error of 1% in a 600+ mm scale is an absolute error of 6+ mm.

Besides, if you look at the photo of the 12th fret you will see that that is not placed accurately for a 24.75" scale.

The top E saddle shown in the photo is about 1/16" forward of the 24.75" mark and is almost at the limit of its adjustment. The front edge of the saddle slot is at 24 3/8". How can you say there is nothing wrong with this? it's clearly "miles" out.

I only wish you could hear the damn thing...

Looking at the picture of your Les Paul, I would say that the bridge looks as though it has been mounted too far forward, i.e. too close to the pickup.

The same goes for the SG on the right of the lower pic.

There is no reason for there to be range adjustment that takes the saddle inside of the scale length limit more than a fraction of a millimetre (yes my intonation tempering can do that). Almost all compensation involves moving the saddle away from the fingerboard, so that's where you want the range...
 
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Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Well said doc. I have noticed this on other high end guitars also, not just Gibbos. What do you consider wrong with reversing the saddles if you make sure there are no burrs etc, and very finely roll over the extreme edges of the top of the saddle with fine emery to aid break angle towards the bridge!

Sometimes you have to reverse the saddles but I usually find it is unnecessary. i had to do it on the Melody Maker illustrated here as it was the only way to get the G string even approximately in tune.

The string usually sounds more cleanly from the flat side of the saddle rather than the beveled side. This is not such an issue on TMs which have not been slotted, but if slots have been cut the bevel can cause harmonic anomalies similar to that which happens when a string sounds from the back of nut slot or there is a flare in the slot.

I find that a properly tempered intonation results in the saddles having to be brought forward slightly so reversal of the low string saddles isn't necessary.
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

:banghead:

Indeed. I have no idea what they're thinking. Why center the bridge saddles' travel on the shortest possible distance? I can't think of a time one would need to shorten the strings vibrating length to less than the scale length.

Maybe that's what happened. If the original idea was to use a 624mm scale and center the bridge on 628mm, and the bridge saddles have 8mm of travel, then 624mm would be at the full forward position of the saddle. Maybe some genius looked at the numbers and decided that obviously the bridge post should be placed at exactly the scale length.
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Yes that was my first thought as well; it was only when I looked at the figures and realised that they appear to be placing the bridge exactly 24.5" from the nut but that the true scale is exactly 624.75 which is exactly what you get if you multiply 24.5" by an conversion factor of 25.5 instead of 25.4 that it dawned on me that it could just be because of a mathematical error caused when the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

I think that the idea of them using a subcontractor who has miscalculated the settings on a CNC machine which uses an unfamiliar metric calibration is probably the most generous interpretation since it doesn't imply such a monumental level of stupidity.

That said, I have seen this plenty of times on older 335 types, although the are much easier to correct on acount of only having a piece of 1/8" studding to shift...
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

HOWEVER, and yes I saw where you're posting from! As 1st a Brit, where incidentally the IMPERIAL measuring system was invented/standardised, and 2nd working in an industry where we use both ALL the time, and both work just as well for us. I have to defend the Imperial system.

We Brits built an Empire, and half the industry around it on Imperial. We also helped a lot of people around the World using it to standardise things like railways, when Europe was all over the place with theirs.

Actually in certain respects, measurements and particularly when using hyper accurate guages, Imperial is often far more accurate. Believe it or not but a lot of guages in engineering are twice the diameter and more accurate in Imperial than their metric equivalent.

it's an absolute pain in the ass to do a lot of engineering calculations though!

metric system, everything's in units of 10. you can convert to kg/m³ to metric tonnes/mm³ without even using a calculator - just move the decimal point

imperial (or American standard engineering units, there's slight differences), thats three or four conversion factors.. I'm proud of British engineering, but the yanks are welcome to this one ;)

tom
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

Great info Doc, and timely too, since I'm in the process of replacing the bridge on my Patriot with a Hipshot. So, if I understand this correctly, I should adjust the saddles almost all the way forward, and then place the bridge based on that? That will give me a smidgen of forward saddle movement, and maximum rear saddle movement?
 
Re: Gibsons... ho ho ho!

This is exactly the problem i posted about on my LP DC Faded P90. Friggin g string is all the way back and still out.
 
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