Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

[myxolidian]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

What you need to do is get to the next level. Unfortunately, the next level takes years (actually could be a lifetime, if you're into some crazy jazz) and is where most guitar players seem to fail. There is nothing worse than jamming with people who have no clue how to play, at the very least, in a song's key.

Learning to play other people's music is purely physical and is actually the easy part of learning to play. The hard part is learning the structures and theory of music, such as what YJM_Rocks pointed out, and making it as natural as speaking and having a conversation. You have to know the rules before you can break them.

My solos are all on the fly or at most a couple of takes. That comes from knowledge of theory and years of using that theory so that it now becomes automatic. And even then I'm still learning new ways. It's part of the fun. I can't imagine taking hours to work out a solo.

Just start chipping away at learning the scales and theory and one day it'll all come together. Just don't expect it to happen overnight...

 

[Osensei]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

This is the type of stuff that I so often get flamed for! But I have repeatedly stated that conceptualizing a solo in terms of scales can lead to pitfalls. Once more the tendancy is for the player to end up playing scales verbatim. This is especially true when the player is new to improv.

That's not to say that crafting solos based on scalar anaylsis is wrong. I'm just pointing out the fact that the player needs to rely on more than a single method of conceptualization. Certainly, scales have thier place, but sometimes it takes a different approach to truly yield the results that you are seeking.

Another problem I've seen in my "EXPERIENCE" is that often people stop seeking other concepts or methods because they feel that process of analyzing solos by choosing which scales can be played against a given chord is "THE ANSWER". This leads to burnout eventually because the repetiveness of the process tends to always yield similar results. Your audience may only get to hear you play once. You have to hear yourself every day! Eventually, the player gets burned out and tired of hearing thier own playing. The player's own imagination will eventually dictate that a new approach is warranted.

So rather than having to discover new approaches years from now, which could be a difficult thing to do, nip the problem in the bud right now! Seek many conceptual approaches to the same problem right now.

 

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Learn your circle f fiths, notes that compose certain chords, and examine those notes that compose certain chords in scale forms/shapes.

Learn the pentatonic scales, and then write a I, IV, V progression of some sort.

Write down the notes that make up each chord, and then look at the major pentatonic and look at which notes from that scale fit into which chords. When you go to play along with the progression, focus on target notes, the notes that make up each chord. If I have a C, F, G progression, and I'm on C for 4 measures, I'm not going to play the note D a wholelet or emphasize it. Sure, I may hammer onto it or bend up to it for s slight second but it is not found in the C major chord and isn't whats going to sound best. I'd go for the notes C,E, and G... What do ya know, those make up a C major chord. This goes on and on for the other chords.

Now this only applies to first learning how to improvise, once you have a good hold on phrasing, theory and melody, you can essentialy use any note from a keys given scale over any chord, just depends on how you play/accent/use that note.

As for the "dont think about scales" theory, I totally disagree. Learning scales helps you learn where certain notes on the fretboard are, and allows your fingers to know where notes in a fgiven key are. It is totally up to the player and whether or not they stay with in those shapes or combine all of them in a certain fashion that seems "formless".

I learned the four major scale forms, and then derived all my modes from those forms. As well as all of the pentatonic forms.

I then moved onto combining all of them and nothing I play comes directly from a certain scale form.. Learning scales = learning the fretboard.

Then you move on and improvise with different fragments of those scales.

 

[Artie]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

This is one of those threads that has outstanding synergy. Several people are saying almost the same thing, but in a way that is slightly different. As you read down through the posts, a little light goes on in my head here and there.

This a great thread. Vault-worthy?

Artie

 

[suislidE03]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Ok, i have got to ask. I just dont understand the point of modes. Its notes of a scale, but you change which note you start on.. i cant get this through my head how you actually benefit from that?

 

[Osensei]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

SuisslideE03,

People who improvise will often play a given mode because it sounds different than your standard major or minor scale. Each mode has its own unique sound if you play each note in sequence. Many adlibist feel that they can work thier way through a solo by picking certain modes that they can play against a given chord. I've had some heated discussions about this very subject on this forum! LOL!

You see the problem is that you really can't hear the sound of the mode unless you play a bunch of notes in sequence as they occur in the scale. The more you mix things up the less the mode is suggested (heard by the ear). This kind of verbatim scale playing will work and even make for some energetic soloing for a while. The down side is that it gets old quick as you start to hear a "sameness" from one solo to the next.

To be honest, the greatest asset to modes is as the previous poster alluded to. They familiarize the player with the fretboard in such a way that helps the player remain in a certain key anywhere on the neck. Think about it! It would make no sense to start a run on C everytime you saw a C chord and then start on F when the chord changed to F and continue on in similar fashion.

As you improvise you have to change keys either at the major key changes in the song or even on every chord in some styles. As you follow these chord changes you will undoubtedly be required to start in the middle of the scale related to the corresponding key and remain in the proper key from that point until the next change occurs.

 

[YJM_Rocks]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Suislide, try playing each mode position starting on the same note. C for example. Try playing C major, note the sound of it, major, happy right? Now play a dorian shape still starting on C. Hear the difference? You have a minor third and a minor 7. Now try a phrygian shape starting on C. You will immediately notice the minor 2nd interval. It has a unique sound. Modes are what all music is built off of, whether we know it or not.

 

[YJM_Rocks]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Oh an I am with Artie, this may be vault-worthy.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

There really isn't a magic bullet for learning to improvise, to learning scales or any other musical pursuit. You really have to have a passion for music and more so for learning to really pull it off effectively.

learning scales is important. Thirds study and other etudes provide you with the building blocks for improvisation. I once read that improvisation is 50% learned behavior and 50% inspired. What this means to me is that half the time you are playing what you know and the other half of the time you are playing what you feel. The thing is that you have to know some stuff before you can translate it into feelings. You can have the mother of all melodies in your head but if you can't execute on demand or if the translation gets lost somewhere between your head and your hands, you're lost.

Ever talk to a two year old and wonder what in the heck they were trying to say? Toddlers don't have the vocabulary to communicate effectively. They probably know what it is they are thinking but it gets lost in the translation. Same goes for a player with a limited musical vocabulary. If you don't know where the fingers go, you end up with gibberish.

Guitar playing is easier than piano or some other non-stringed instruments in the fact that the fingering for scales in guitar is very repetitive. Once you learn a pattern for a particular scale, it translates up the neck. You run into some diffeent stuff when you involve the open strings but for the most part, once you have the modes for majors down at least you have something to work with.

After that, interval studies will help to break up the linear sound that scales posses. Again, more building blocks, more words and your playing now makes more sense.

Once the mechanics are down you can use the circle of fifths to make sense of it all and to see how the different scales and keys relate to each other and how to use outside harmonies to create more interest in your playing. It doesn't have to be in latin, just knowing how to get an Ab into the key of Bb major with the correct positioning of your hands can be a great start.

Lastly is experimentation. Some of my best chops have come from making "mistakes". No matter what the rule is that applies, if it sounds good it is good.

 

[SpiderVenom]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Like anything, there are different approaches. I hear a lot of people espousing the merits of purely inspirational improvision. This always discouraged me, because I'm very much an analytical thinker, and I like to know the details of what I'm doing, and be able to plan/structure everything logically.

I have a video, Melodic Control, from Marty Friedman, that really opened my eyes in this area. It has a lot of good material, but the one point that really stuck in my head was when he said that he basically concentrates as hard as he can during improvising, and is constantly thinking about which notes to play.

And you can't say Marty Friedman has poor improvisational skills

The point is, I don't think it's bad/evil to play from preconceived constructions, like scales. A lot of players seem to think that if you get some sort if indefinable, magic, outside-the-box playing, you'll be far better than someone who knows theory. In my opinion, a lot of the best ideas are already inside the box. It's quite possible to be technical but creative.

And, as our 5 year old admin pointed out (and as Troy Stetina says) - if it sounds good, it is good. That's the only unbreakable rule of music.

 

[Rushfan2112]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

If you want to be better than your peers at jams, practice rhythm. Rhythm chops are seriously lacking at some of the jams I have been to lately.

++. I usually impress a kid I play with who think's he's hot **** when it comes to guitar.

As to turning scales--> licks, take a look at some riffs and licks based on that scale from other bands. Look at that lick, and see where it falls on the scale. Did the guitarist include another note? Take the time to decipher that stuff, and other things kind of come at you.

 

[Osensei]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Well if you're in the wrong key it doesn't matter how inspired you feel! That is unless you're doing some King Crimson stuff! LOL! Most stuff still falls into the tonal relm as opposed to the atonal. Therefore, it is paramount that the soloist remain in the proper key at the very least!

This is where scales are useful. They provide you with a set or (domain if you will) from which pitches that are compatible with a given chord or tonal center can be chosen. Theoretically this is sound! The problem comes in the practical application. Some players are quite comfortable with utilizing scales effectively to generate solos. Yet others struggle with the same application.

I attribute this difference to the fact that not all musical styles are created equal! If one is to play some Metal, they may have two whole measures to go wild on a single chord. If someone is playing Bebop they may have to go through at least four key changes in 8 measures. It makes a big difference when chords change every 2 beats as opposed to every 1 or 2 measures.

If a player is truly adlibing (playing a non-reheased solo) then they could very well lose thier friggin mind trying to keep track of the right scale to chord combos within styles that have fast moving harmonic changes. This is why getting locked into one train of thought is problematic. If the concept doesn't work for you then find another concept to do the same thing.

 

[suislidE03]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

yea i had the melodic control dvd.. freakin disappeared on me one day! makes me so mad that i cant watch it again..

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

You mean one can LEARN this stuff somewhere?

 

[Robbiedbee]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

Rushfan2112 touched upon what I want to say.

I would first listen to a load of cool songs with cool solos, then learn the cool licks from the cool solos, either by ear, which is cool, or by tab. Learn how the licks fit in with the song, and how the licks are linked together by some runs which may just be going up or down the scale. Or 1 3 2 4 3 5 4 6 5 7 patterns with in a scale maybe, by each number represents a note on the scale there btw.

When you have a pretty cool lick vocabulary (Harmony Central is great for this, David Gilmour's licks are being scrutinised at the moment), then just analyse each lick. See what scale it is in. If it is in A, know that you play the same thing two frets down to play it in G etc. Learn to manipulate things this way. Substituting (transposing maybe?) things up and down the neck this way is a better way of memorising the scales in my opinion than flat out learning them.

Pentatonics are often the best place to start. Licks are nice, and cool sounding, and give any solo instant character. The licks are easy, and can be altered easily. Hammer-ons and pull-offs can be added more or less anywhere, and you can pick and choose parts of the lick and piece them together with other licks to make bigger licks or more legato-style licks. It's like playing with building blocks or a jigsaw at times. I personally prefer to take this simpler approach, but for me it gets you playing good-sounding, relatively easy riffs, and helps you learn it all gradually as you develop your own licks. Maybe it's cheating, I'm not sure, but it really really works.

 

[schcully]

Re: Good ways to memorise scales? and improvisation help?

If you want to learn by patterns first (if you don't read music), I would suggest this;
Learn your chords in every position, up the fretboard. Know which three (or four or more) notes make that chord, anywhere on the neck. Make melodies aginst a metronome or drum machine.
Next, learn your pentatonics. A pentatonic scale has five notes, so learn five patterns, two notes per string, up the fretboard. Try different pentatonics against different chords also, even if it only has one or two common tones, you'd be surprised at how "advanced" that can sound.
Then, Learn your modes, three notes per string, in seven patterns up the fretboard (for each seven notes of that scale, or mode). Once again, play melodies with the most obvious choices (most common tones to whatever chord you're playing against), then with less common tones, but just enough to give that "outside" tension.
The great thing is now there are a lot of jam along type CD/book packages. When it comes down to it, you just have to play along with something. Drum machines are cheap nowadays, and get creative with rhythms, because I agree with the earlier post that you can't have a good lead without a great rhythm.
As far as theory goes, I would always suggest learning to read music. It made more sense when I applied it to the guitar. And I was able to buy sheet music of other instruments and apply their phrasing to the guitar. I picked up a saxophone technique book by Joseph Viola that changed the way I look at the fretboard. Listen to other instruments too. I love sax, violin, and piano. When you just think music, as opposed to scale patterns and guitaristic approaches, it can open yor mind.
Getting back to pentatonics, they can be very effective once your phrasing develops. Heck, my favorite sax player, John Coltrane, played a lot of pentatonics, and he sounded like he was from another planet. He mixed a lot of heart with that theory. His wife said that he would lock himself in his music room of his house, and just work on ideas and play for hours on end. You just have to play. And sing. Try singinging ideas before you touch that guitar.
Sorry to ramble, I fought this myself ages ago, and remember being as frustrated as you are now.