Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
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PierceOkken
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Watched it earlier today, great vid. Not that I was confused with it, but it is a good explanation for beginners.
Watched it earlier today, great vid. Not that I was confused with it, but it is a good explanation for beginners.
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
An amplifier's topology can have a much greater effect on the psychology of the guitarist than it does on the sound. A diode clipping stage can be the kiss of death in terms marketing even if it sounds great.
Another, interesting thing about amp consumers psychology is the amount of rated watts per price. Most guitarists only ever use maybe 10% of their 100 watt amp's output, but they will gladly spend $1900 on the 100 watt version instead of $1200 on the 20 watt version of the same amp. They feel like they are being cheated or something. But if the 20 watt amp costs $600 instead of $1200, even if the build quality is less, then they are okay with it being 20 watts instead of 100 watts.
Interesting about tests confirming it takes 2 1/2 times more solid state watts than tube watts. It is been my experience that that is true.
A comment on their comments about cheap vs expensive guitar cables: I will gladly pay a few more bucks for a quality cable because I have been burned before at a jam in terms of tone by a crappy cable. It was not something only Eric Johnson could hear. Everybody could hear the tone suck.
An amplifier's topology can have a much greater effect on the psychology of the guitarist than it does on the sound. A diode clipping stage can be the kiss of death in terms marketing even if it sounds great.
Another, interesting thing about amp consumers psychology is the amount of rated watts per price. Most guitarists only ever use maybe 10% of their 100 watt amp's output, but they will gladly spend $1900 on the 100 watt version instead of $1200 on the 20 watt version of the same amp. They feel like they are being cheated or something. But if the 20 watt amp costs $600 instead of $1200, even if the build quality is less, then they are okay with it being 20 watts instead of 100 watts.
Interesting about tests confirming it takes 2 1/2 times more solid state watts than tube watts. It is been my experience that that is true.
A comment on their comments about cheap vs expensive guitar cables: I will gladly pay a few more bucks for a quality cable because I have been burned before at a jam in terms of tone by a crappy cable. It was not something only Eric Johnson could hear. Everybody could hear the tone suck.
PierceOkken
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Definitely true. Main reason I bought the Rockerverb 50 vs the 100. 50 tube watts is more than enough for my current gigging situation. I rarely have the master above 7-8
Definitely true. Main reason I bought the Rockerverb 50 vs the 100. 50 tube watts is more than enough for my current gigging situation. I rarely have the master above 7-8
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I use a 30 watt combo these days and it is plenty loud. It definitely falls in the hybrid category - Vox AV30 w/ 2 12AX7's. Killer sounding amp and loud enough to keep up with a very loud drummer. I even have to put a baffle in front of it so the beam of the speaker doesn't kill anyone.
The whole diode clipping stage in amps thing makes me laugh. If more guitarists would be more educated about what's in their pedals, they wouldn't care about the diodes anymore.
I use a 30 watt combo these days and it is plenty loud. It definitely falls in the hybrid category - Vox AV30 w/ 2 12AX7's. Killer sounding amp and loud enough to keep up with a very loud drummer. I even have to put a baffle in front of it so the beam of the speaker doesn't kill anyone.
The whole diode clipping stage in amps thing makes me laugh. If more guitarists would be more educated about what's in their pedals, they wouldn't care about the diodes anymore.
Jacew
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I think most people who don't want diode clipping in an amp don't generally use diode clipping pedals either.
I think most people who don't want diode clipping in an amp don't generally use diode clipping pedals either.
LLL
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Incredibly... and sadly... true.
Incredibly... and sadly... true.
Sirion
Well-known member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I think that valve type might justify getting a bigger amp. I know that Mike Soldano denied this, but the valve type changes the sound even when the power amp valves are not distorting. With regards to the modern brand of mini amps (as well as certain larger amps who use them) I've never really liked the feel of the EL84, which is standard in most amps under 50 watts. It isn't a bad sound, but it is a little too subtle, intricate and delicate for my tastes. Having the same basic amp set up for EL34s valves does make it more muscular, and deepens the voice of the amp in general.
That being said, I always go for the 50 watt over the 100 watt version of an amp, and even that is really more than is actually needed.
I think that valve type might justify getting a bigger amp. I know that Mike Soldano denied this, but the valve type changes the sound even when the power amp valves are not distorting. With regards to the modern brand of mini amps (as well as certain larger amps who use them) I've never really liked the feel of the EL84, which is standard in most amps under 50 watts. It isn't a bad sound, but it is a little too subtle, intricate and delicate for my tastes. Having the same basic amp set up for EL34s valves does make it more muscular, and deepens the voice of the amp in general.
That being said, I always go for the 50 watt over the 100 watt version of an amp, and even that is really more than is actually needed.
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Possibly. They may not use any pedals at all.
However, a vast majority of overdrive pedals use some sort of diode to accomplish the clipping, whether it be silicon, germanium, LED, MOSFET transistors or NPN transistors (sometimes arranged to be a diode rectifier).
Possibly. They may not use any pedals at all.
However, a vast majority of overdrive pedals use some sort of diode to accomplish the clipping, whether it be silicon, germanium, LED, MOSFET transistors or NPN transistors (sometimes arranged to be a diode rectifier).
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PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I agree on tube type. I have a Mesa that has both 6L6 and EL34 tubes and allows you to switch on the fly. I recorded a few phrases on a looper placed in the effects loop. While replaying the loop, I switched between the 6L6 and EL34 tubes to see the difference. Very interesting. There’s a distinct difference in the tone and response, but it still sounded like the amp, not a Fender and then magically a Marshall. I also agree on small vs large tubes. 6V6s have a really cool breakup that I love, much more so than EL84s. They almost sound like a mini EL34 in their bark. I recently upgraded to a 6L6 amp of the same style simply to get more headroom. I feel that’s the biggest difference between 50W and 100W versions of an amp. Do you want the sag of the 50W or the punch of the 100W?
I agree on tube type. I have a Mesa that has both 6L6 and EL34 tubes and allows you to switch on the fly. I recorded a few phrases on a looper placed in the effects loop. While replaying the loop, I switched between the 6L6 and EL34 tubes to see the difference. Very interesting. There’s a distinct difference in the tone and response, but it still sounded like the amp, not a Fender and then magically a Marshall. I also agree on small vs large tubes. 6V6s have a really cool breakup that I love, much more so than EL84s. They almost sound like a mini EL34 in their bark. I recently upgraded to a 6L6 amp of the same style simply to get more headroom. I feel that’s the biggest difference between 50W and 100W versions of an amp. Do you want the sag of the 50W or the punch of the 100W?
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
And they can't buy 2×12 rated at 60w that they want because they think that their amp will blow it up.
And they can't buy 2×12 rated at 60w that they want because they think that their amp will blow it up.
Jacew
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
+1
I have Egnater Rebel with a pot to allow dialing between 6V6 or EL84 side. They definitely differ even in low volume. Blending them sounds better to me than either side alone. I keep it around 10 o'clock for a little bit more of that 6V6 bark.
+1
I have Egnater Rebel with a pot to allow dialing between 6V6 or EL84 side. They definitely differ even in low volume. Blending them sounds better to me than either side alone. I keep it around 10 o'clock for a little bit more of that 6V6 bark.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I think the only reason tubes and SS/hybrid amps still have a "different sound & response" is because of marketing considerations ..or there'd be no difference at all & by that I mean ZERO :bigthumb:
The guys pretty much said so in the video themselves.
Yeah, tube tone is the best tone to my ears, but we're at a point where it need'nt come from a tube amp. If you remove the marketing equations & bull****, you can build that very "tube tone/feel" 101% into an SS or hybrid amp if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't :lmao
..it's that easy.
The Kemper and AXe-FX/Helix stuff is probably great for copying tones of other amps and they get pretty close with that (despite my being personally underwhelmed when I tried an Axe FX..probabaly 'cause I did'nt have a clue on how to tweak it to my taste..but that's another story) but in the end I think good old analog SS is the best type of tube emulation out there in terms of not just duplicating the feel & response of tubes to the point where the most golden-eared of tube purist's couldnt tell the difference in a blind test, but also the simplicity and familiarity of an actual tube amp (ie..turn the knobs up and go..)
I think the only reason tubes and SS/hybrid amps still have a "different sound & response" is because of marketing considerations ..or there'd be no difference at all & by that I mean ZERO :bigthumb:
The guys pretty much said so in the video themselves.
Yeah, tube tone is the best tone to my ears, but we're at a point where it need'nt come from a tube amp. If you remove the marketing equations & bull****, you can build that very "tube tone/feel" 101% into an SS or hybrid amp if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't :lmao
..it's that easy.The Kemper and AXe-FX/Helix stuff is probably great for copying tones of other amps and they get pretty close with that (despite my being personally underwhelmed when I tried an Axe FX..probabaly 'cause I did'nt have a clue on how to tweak it to my taste..but that's another story) but in the end I think good old analog SS is the best type of tube emulation out there in terms of not just duplicating the feel & response of tubes to the point where the most golden-eared of tube purist's couldnt tell the difference in a blind test, but also the simplicity and familiarity of an actual tube amp (ie..turn the knobs up and go..)
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
The first thing to say is that *most* people would never know the difference between Tubes, SS or Digital when listening to a record. So much is digital now, recording wise, I think people would be shocked. Side by side by side, someone with a good ear *might* be able to tell, but even then, most would not.
And yes, all those modelers require time and effort to get the tone you want. That's why I personally sold mine. I had great tones in there, but I was always tweaking and looking around to see how much better I could get them. Started tweaking more than playing.
I think the only reason tubes and SS/hybrid amps still have a "different sound & response" is because of marketing considerations ..or there'd be no difference at all & by that I mean ZERO :bigthumb:
The guys pretty much said so in the video themselves.
Yeah, tube tone is the best tone to my ears, but we're at a point where it need'nt come from a tube amp. If you remove the marketing equations & bull****, you can build that very "tube tone/feel" 101% into an SS or hybrid amp if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't :lmao
The Kemper and AXe-FX/Helix stuff is probably great for copying tones of other amps and they get pretty close with that (despite my being personally underwhelmed when I tried an Axe FX..probabaly 'cause I did'nt have a clue on how to tweak it to my taste..but that's another story) but in the end I think good old analog SS is the best type of tube emulation out there in terms of not just duplicating the feel & response of tubes to the point where the most golden-eared of tube purist's couldnt tell the difference in a blind test, but also the simplicity and familiarity of an actual tube amp (ie..turn the knobs up and go..)
The first thing to say is that *most* people would never know the difference between Tubes, SS or Digital when listening to a record. So much is digital now, recording wise, I think people would be shocked. Side by side by side, someone with a good ear *might* be able to tell, but even then, most would not.
And yes, all those modelers require time and effort to get the tone you want. That's why I personally sold mine. I had great tones in there, but I was always tweaking and looking around to see how much better I could get them. Started tweaking more than playing.
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Exactly why I like Vox modelers. Easy to tweak, save the settings, and they sound great. I had a DigiTech RP500 an while it's a cool unit, I was tweaking it too much and couldn't quite get it where I wanted it. I much preferred the Vox AD50VT amp I had at the time. Now, I have a Vox AV30 which is all analog with a digital effects bank. Completely WYSIWYG on both channels with 8 different amp voicings. They don't market it as a modeling amp per se, but it pretty much is, just not digital. I love it and glad I was shown it when I was amp shopping several years back.
Exactly why I like Vox modelers. Easy to tweak, save the settings, and they sound great. I had a DigiTech RP500 an while it's a cool unit, I was tweaking it too much and couldn't quite get it where I wanted it. I much preferred the Vox AD50VT amp I had at the time. Now, I have a Vox AV30 which is all analog with a digital effects bank. Completely WYSIWYG on both channels with 8 different amp voicings. They don't market it as a modeling amp per se, but it pretty much is, just not digital. I love it and glad I was shown it when I was amp shopping several years back.
Jacew
New member
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
I don't believe that. There is a ton of pedals out there that claim to nail "tube preamp" tone with ss circuit, but none does really.
Now I haven't tried many and I'm sure there are some I couldn't tell apart in a record, but that's irrelevant. In what I've tried; difference is there and I believe otherwise only when I hear it personally.
That's just 12ax7 tone. I think tube power amp would be even more difficult to replicate, but I could be wrong surely.
I think the only reason tubes and SS/hybrid amps still have a "different sound & response" is because of marketing considerations ..or there'd be no difference at all & by that I mean ZERO :bigthumb:
The guys pretty much said so in the video themselves.
Yeah, tube tone is the best tone to my ears, but we're at a point where it need'nt come from a tube amp. If you remove the marketing equations & bull****, you can build that very "tube tone/feel" 101% into an SS or hybrid amp if you know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you don't :lmao
The Kemper and AXe-FX/Helix stuff is probably great for copying tones of other amps and they get pretty close with that (despite my being personally underwhelmed when I tried an Axe FX..probabaly 'cause I did'nt have a clue on how to tweak it to my taste..but that's another story) but in the end I think good old analog SS is the best type of tube emulation out there in terms of not just duplicating the feel & response of tubes to the point where the most golden-eared of tube purist's couldnt tell the difference in a blind test, but also the simplicity and familiarity of an actual tube amp (ie..turn the knobs up and go..)
I don't believe that. There is a ton of pedals out there that claim to nail "tube preamp" tone with ss circuit, but none does really.
Now I haven't tried many and I'm sure there are some I couldn't tell apart in a record, but that's irrelevant. In what I've tried; difference is there and I believe otherwise only when I hear it personally.
That's just 12ax7 tone. I think tube power amp would be even more difficult to replicate, but I could be wrong surely.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
Re: Great vid on Tube vs. SS vs Digital Amps - Andertons
Well, to each their own. I have tube, SS & hybrid amps & while they all have their own tonal characteristics, On the vast majority of settings I could'nt tell tube from SS/Hybrid (& maybe a a few settings where I could), not saying just by listening to them either, I mean even playing them. Now I will grant you that I'm talking about high gain, because that's really 99% of what I play.
I stick by what I say though. It's all about marketing. The average customer expects a SS amp to cost $300 & a tube amp to cost $1000+ at least. And that's pretty much what he'd be willing to shell out for either. That being the case, If I was an amp manufacturer, I would'nt be putting out SS amps that sound identical to my tube amps either, even if (especially if) I had the wherewithal to do it (business equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot) It's in everyone's best interest to perpetuate the "tubes are the holy grail of tone that can't ever be replicated" myth.
Well, to each their own. I have tube, SS & hybrid amps & while they all have their own tonal characteristics, On the vast majority of settings I could'nt tell tube from SS/Hybrid (& maybe a a few settings where I could), not saying just by listening to them either, I mean even playing them. Now I will grant you that I'm talking about high gain, because that's really 99% of what I play.
I stick by what I say though. It's all about marketing. The average customer expects a SS amp to cost $300 & a tube amp to cost $1000+ at least. And that's pretty much what he'd be willing to shell out for either. That being the case, If I was an amp manufacturer, I would'nt be putting out SS amps that sound identical to my tube amps either, even if (especially if) I had the wherewithal to do it (business equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot) It's in everyone's best interest to perpetuate the "tubes are the holy grail of tone that can't ever be replicated" myth.
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