Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

jasyr

New member
I've always been crap at math story problems, and this reminds me of one...

So, dedicating a 70's lawsuit LP to magnetically reversed neck. (Please no electrical flip talk :)) If the pup is reverse-wound does the magnet remain the same direction? Or is it also reversed? Like a mirror opposite of bridge pickup?

P.S. are there any officially Gibson factory-issued models that featured reverse wound humbuckers?

P.P.S. is the latest info still: not definitively known whether Peter's LP was reverse wound?

thanks in advance,
j
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

For the Peter Green sound you'll want to flip the magnet or reverse the wiring, not both. The consensus is that the neck pickup in Greenie had a reversed magnet, but no one seems to know if it left the factory that way or was modded later.

If you reverse the wiring and magnet you'll end up with a RW/RP humbucker that will hum cancel with both pickups split, but will not do the out-of-phase middle position.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

Peter Green's pickup had the magnet inadvertently flipped by a guitar tech at some point. Other than that, it's a normal pickup.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

If you reverse the internal hookup of a pickup, absolutely you can still have it with the mag the same way. There is no requirement to do both.
But as the RW is done mainly as 1 step of making a singlecoil combination hum cancelling, the RP is done at the same time to bring the pickups in a set back in phase. And you could consider 1 humbucker in this description too.

PS. Yes, but they feature RP as well. Some of the studio or standard models that have a coil cut switch feature the middle position as being a hum cancelling one.


PPS - The effect on sound of reverse wound/hookup or mag flip is identical, so the point is moot. As it happens, the Greeny LP's neck pickup either died or was working poorly soon after Peter got it. He had someone look at it and the whole pickup had to be rewound. The hookup lead is now an insulated grey one instead of the braided single conductor original to Gibson. As to the OOP effect, It could either be electrically reverse due to the wrong wires connected inside the pickup, or alternatively at the pot.......and of course it could be magnetically reverse as the mag could have been installed the wrong way.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

A guy who examined the pickup in recent years stated in an article that the magnet is definitely flipped. Because of the fact that the pickup was repaired at some point, it is a reasonable assumption that the repair person accidentally put the magnet back in the wrong way during that process. I don’t remember the exact details, but it could be that it had the leads replaced, as opposed to an entire rewind.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?


About 9:30 in the history of the neck pickup is discusssed.
 
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Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

Thank you for the replies...

i know these are different guitars w/dif pickups, but when listening to both necks/only with both/middle full on, i must admit for me there's a different basic quality between flip vs. reverse wind, perhaps, beyond different guitars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=727&v=ISlXremGXM0&feature=emb_logo

I've also stumbled on a comment the Bare Knuckle dude is convinced the tone is reverse wound. Not that that in and of itself means alot... but i think i will do a reverse wound neck. Anyone seen a closer on youtube with reverse wound/ flip? I.E. same guitar & same pickup model wound both ways?
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

Thank you for the replies...

i know these are different guitars w/dif pickups, but when listening to both necks/only with both/middle full on, i must admit for me there's a different basic quality between flip vs. reverse wind, perhaps, beyond different guitars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=727&v=ISlXremGXM0&feature=emb_logo

I've also stumbled on a comment the Bare Knuckle dude is convinced the tone is reverse wound. Not that that in and of itself means alot... but i think i will do a reverse wound neck. Anyone seen a closer on youtube with reverse wound/ flip? I.E. same guitar & same pickup model wound both ways?

From an electrical perspective, there is no difference between only flipping the magnet and only flipping the wiring. The only practical difference is that it is most often easier to flip the wiring than the magnet.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

Thank you for the replies...

i know these are different guitars w/dif pickups, but when listening to both necks/only with both/middle full on, i must admit for me there's a different basic quality between flip vs. reverse wind, perhaps, beyond different guitars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=727&v=ISlXremGXM0&feature=emb_logo

I've also stumbled on a comment the Bare Knuckle dude is convinced the tone is reverse wound. Not that that in and of itself means alot... but i think i will do a reverse wound neck. Anyone seen a closer on youtube with reverse wound/ flip? I.E. same guitar & same pickup model wound both ways?

You cannot make any comparison of tone if both the guitar and pickups are different. The physics of the situation are absolute.....there is no difference to the effect of the signal with electrical or magnetic OOP. Some have said proximity of magnetic fields might influence the outcome......but pickups as far apart as they are in a 2-pickup LP is really stretching things.

I have had pickups that were OOP magnetically sound vastly different in the middle position when swapped from 1 guitar to another. Have you ever done experiments like this - to see how different guitars make the same pickups sound.....with the OOP bit involved too??
 
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Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

What songs feature the signature tone?

Peter Green’s signature tone? If so, it’s rock-n-roll 104 material – required study for anyone playing Western music on a typical rock-n-roll instrument, even if you don’t play in that style yourself. It’s part of the rock-n-roll alphabet, so to speak. 101 would cover the [primarily African-American] proto-rock-n-roll material, 102 the earliest [primarily European-American] players, 103 surf rock and the early British Invasion, and 104 mid-to-late ‘60s psychedelic and blues-rock/roots of heavy metal. I’d go get the John Mayall album A Hard Road, and the first couple of Fleetwood Mac albums (Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac and Mr. Wonderful are a good start). Anything that has that obvious out of phase tone is the signature Peter Green sound.
 
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Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

What songs feature the signature tone?

The guitar was also used by Gary Moore for all tracks on Blues for Greeny. It would be worth a listen if you want to hear it with some different fingers. Probably a few other Moore tracks if you do the research.
 
Re: Greenie: reverse wind AND mag flip?

Joe Perry, Noel Gallagher, Richie Sambora, Jimmy Page, and B.B. King also all use or have used out-of-phase tones with similar-spec humbuckers. Speaking of which...

P.S. are there any officially Gibson factory-issued models that featured reverse wound humbuckers?
Gibson Custom Shop and Epiphone Joe Perry 'Boneyard' Les Pauls all feature reversed neck pickups for an OOP middle tone, though whether it's reversed via the magnet or the wire is a bit of a mystery; very few people are willing to have their Custom Shop guitar deconstructed to find out, especially as the other electronics in the Gibson ones are the more fragile and expensive VOS ones. The Epiphone guitars use an unpotted Gibson Burstbucker #2 with the magnet flipped (which I can confirm myself, as I own one) but I've never found anybody reporting what their Gibson CS one is and I've never been able to get my hands on one in person to check. I expect the Epi one has the magnet flipped since it's easier to get the factory to churn out guitars when they don't have to wire anything differently; Gibson flipping the magnet in the pickup before they send the pickup to Korea is probably more fool-proof for production than asking the factory to wire some guitars up one way and other guitars up differently. And Gibson likely go wit the magnet flip since that too is much easier to double-check than setting up to reverse-wind a pickup.

But it's rather moot now since both Gibson CS and Epi versions are long out of production. Vintage guitars now produce a Peter Green ''inspired'' model which has this same configuration, though I'm pretty sure they do it just by using four-conductor pickups and wiring them out of phase in the control cavity.


Anyhoo, as someone who has most of their two/three-pickup guitars set for an out-of-phase tone, I can safely say there is absolutely no difference in tone between reversing the wind of the pickup (which is how I had one set of custom pickups made as), flipping the magnet, or simply swapping the leads over (if the pickup is 4-conductor). At least with regular, common humbucker designs; I have no doubt somebody could come up with some massively-mismatched design which got even stranger if you messed with the wiring further (DM Bluesbucker, G Sidewinder, SD Hot Stack Tele all come to mind), but hey, I assume we're really talking about standard P.A.F.-copy humbuckers here.

So if you have a four conductor pickup and you want to try the tone, you can rewire it very simply without having to open up the pickup, or better yet wire in a push-push pot or some other similar switch so you've got the option if/when you want it but can return to normal any other time. If you don't have the pickups yet then order one with four-conductor wiring so you can try it either way around. There's no reason to use magnetically flipped or reverse-wound humbuckers since it makes no difference to the sound. The only times you should opt for a pickup that is specifically constructed to be OOP with the other pickup is if you are absolutely hell-bent on creating a replica of Peter's original guitar to the point that you're practically creating a forgery, or if you're Gibson/Epiphone/Vintage and you need to produce a lot of guitars quickly without confusing your production line. Otherwise, four-conductor is the way to go. Sorry, but there is just no point in flipping the pickup magnetically if you're just a random messing with their guitar for funsies.
 
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