Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

[guitfiddle]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

These days I won't gig a combo without a stand. It's more about the EQ than the volume, though. That way I can guarantee that what I hear is what is going into the FOH and monitors, if monitors are needed. I usually don't run guitar in monitors, if I can set the amp up so I can hear it clearly. Monitor speakers are generally pretty sub optimal for guitar sound compared to the guitar speaker in my amps. In a pinch, they'll do, but I'd rather listen to my amp.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

:smack:
Okay, I feel really dumb... now WHY haven't I thought of that before? Next gig is about a week-and-a-half out and I may just give that a try! :fing2:

I think we are conditioned by 60 years of rock shows and pictures. But doing things that way generally kills the audience, makes running the PA harder, and if your amp is really directional (most stacks), the bass player can't hear it, so he wants it in his monitor, causing louder volume.

 

[Davii]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

I've been on both sides of the fence with all this, though hearing my vocal was a bigger issue for me on stage, and other band members were more likely not to be able to hear my guitar. On the engineering side, every night I'd explain what I and the other engineer were trying to achieve. Those that bothered to listen, and take onboard what was being said, would usually sound far better than the other 90% than couldn't be bothered. Sigh.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

'Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs'

Yeah, turn your amps off. Or better still, don't bring them.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

There was no opportunity to experience the lovingly crafted lyric metaphors, exquisite keyboard melodies, subtle drum grooves and carefully programmed laptop soundscapes

This is where the author ran right off the rails. If anything's "exquisite" or "lovingly crafted", amps are not involved. Acoustics, strings, maybe a piano, but if there's a guitar amp, you're at the wrong gig if you expect anything to be "exquisite".

Pompous a$$.


If you go to a venue that has a live band, go to see the band like it's a concert, because for the band, it is. If you want to chit-chat, go find a coffee shop or sit in your car outside, but don't insult the band by considering them a human jukebox.
They might not be juggling flaming chainsaws or sawing people in half to entertain you, but at least do them the courtesy of paying attention.


As for the original subject, the band can do 2 things can take care of this:
1. get there early enough to do a soundcheck, where everyone with an amp stands on the floor where the audience is and listens to the whole mix, and sets their amps accordingly. That means put down the joint, put down the beer, put down the "rock star lifestyle" and do your job.
2. Know the song well enough that you don't have to hear yourself playing to know that you are. If you're playing live, you're not there to hear yourself as much as you're there to be heard. If you're any good at all, you know what you're playing, and having already heard what it sounds like in context, you don't have to hear the amp as much as you think you do. The amp rattling your balls is not mandatory, no matter how much you think it is.

Alternatively, get a small battery-powered amp that points at your face and only you can hear. All you should need is a point of reference tone to know where you are in the song, and unless you're the drummer, you're supposed to be following the beat anyway. If that's all you hear, you should know it well enough to know your place if you're sober.


From a venue's side, they can do 2 things:
1. Admit your venue sucks for live bands that consist of more than 2 adults with more than one guitar and a tambourine, and be up-front about it when bands ask about booking. Yes, you might lose some bit of market share. Musicians do not have to care about your losses. Period. End of. Not negotiable. Ever.
2. Spend some of that personal profit on remodeling your dive into a worthwhile live music venue. Consult with someone with knowledge of acoustic spaces and building design, not just your brother-in-law the local drywall specialist just because he's affordable (i.e. beer and not telling the wife about that time with the waitress from the DQ).

 

[Demanic]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Eze metal, eze supposed to hurt.

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[chadd]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

The problem comes from people that don't want to hear themselves in the mix, they want to hear themselves over the mix. Those people may play drums, bass, guitar, keyboard, etc...

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

One more point I'd like to add is that sometimes it's soundguys who cause the problems. If the amp isn't too loud, then you should be able to use its volume in the FOH mix. In a little place, there is absolutely no reason for the crowd to only hear guitar through the PA. Good soundmen know how to blend the two together. Bad ones are the ones that insist that hearing any amount of the amp itself in the crowd is wrong...because that's BS.

More to the point are the beam of death guys that swear that your 25 watt amp is killing people, then proceed to crank the guitar sound up five times louder in the mains. Instead they should be able to use your amp's sound as part of the FOH mix.

Unless a guitarist insists on putting his amp up so loud that it simply overpowers everything, it should work, and i've seen the really good soundguys make it sound great tons of times.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Art or Science? Or both?

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[guitfiddle]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Art or Science? Or both?

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Definitely both.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Just want to do a quick shout out for Lazybones Lounge in Sydney.
The sound engineer: "Just set up your stuff how you like it. If you are happy then you can do what you do best and the people will like it. This stuff isn't rocket science"
It also helps that the stage is large and deep and covered in nice rugs with a drum riser and that the PA is clean and powerful and they run separate feeds to every foldback wedge.
Having a venue that is really set up for live music, and a venue that books good, professional sounding bands every night gains a loyal and appreciatve audience night after night.
High five to Lazybones and a high five tho their inhouse sound engineer. There are precious few spaces out there still like that and it is important for us musos and live music fans to support and appreciate them.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Having a venue that is really set up for live music, and a venue that books good, professional sounding bands every night gains a loyal and appreciatve audience night after night.

+1. Why isn't that the norm, instead of a rarity? Venues have live music to attract customers; you'd think that the stage wouldn't seem like it was an afterthought.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

My guess is that the owners don't know or don't care at all about live sound. Many of those kinds of places around here feature pay-to-play death metal bands (5-7 a night) who bring their friends and have no idea what good sound is. If the band, the owner, and the audience doesn't care, then, who cares?

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Many of those kinds of places around here feature pay-to-play death metal bands (5-7 a night) who bring their friends and have no idea what good sound is.

That reaffirms my decision to move out of the Tampa Bay area. I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than watch a night of that.

 

[Matt42]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

We have a venue like that here in Missoula called The Top Hat Lounge. A few years back it was a total dive, but someone who had recently moved to town bought it and turned it into the premiere small - medium sized concert venue in the state, and a lot of that has to do with the renovations to the stage and sound system. Tons of people were complaining about him buying and renovating an "iconic Missoula venue," but the changes were amazing. My old band opened for Cold Hard Cash there the second night they were open after the remodel and it was amazing. I've never played a stage like that, we actually had room to set up our stuff, we each had our own monitor with a separate mix, and I could actually hear everything going on with ease! I wish more venues were like that.

 

[chadd]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

My guess is that the owners don't know or don't care at all about live sound. Many of those kinds of places around here feature pay-to-play death metal bands (5-7 a night) who bring their friends and have no idea what good sound is. If the band, the owner, and the audience doesn't care, then, who cares?

They see the cost of the new equipment but can't directly see the cost of using bad stuff. A quality house sound guy has to be a priority and the owner needs to listen to his feedback.

One more point I'd like to add is that sometimes it's soundguys who cause the problems.

The ones that can't hear so well anymore or the ones that are only happy when the kick drum momentarily stops their heartbeat?

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

The ones that can't hear so well anymore or the ones that are only happy when the kick drum momentarily stops their heartbeat?

Ha!! Quite a few of the second kind around...

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

+1. Why isn't that the norm, instead of a rarity? Venues have live music to attract customers; you'd think that the stage wouldn't seem like it was an afterthought.

Because live music generally is not the preferred choice of the masses anymore. The old paradigms no longer apply in 2016. The vast majority of younger people who used to be the live music fans now overwhelmingly prefer to go to electronic dance parties, nightclubs and festivals. They also prefer to take MDMA rather than spending 100 bucks or more over the bar. These things affect the financial viability of any venue. Times have changed and the people's entertainment wants have changed. Venues that do have live music are also under financial pressure to remove the stage and install pokie machines. Inner city venues face noise complaints from uptight residents who have moved into the area. It is for a number of reasons, but the really good places tend to be fewer these days. Good bands playing good music to an interested audience are definitely in a niche market rather than the norm.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

I've never played a stage like that, we actually had room to set up our stuff, we each had our own monitor with a separate mix, and I could actually hear everything going on with ease! I wish more venues were like that.

The stuff dreams are made of.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Because live music generally is not the preferred choice of the masses anymore. The old paradigms no longer apply in 2016. The vast majority of younger people who used to be the live music fans now overwhelmingly prefer to go to electronic dance parties, nightclubs and festivals. They also prefer to take MDMA rather than spending 100 bucks or more over the bar. These things affect the financial viability of any venue. Times have changed and the people's entertainment wants have changed. Venues that do have live music are also under financial pressure to remove the stage and install pokie machines. Inner city venues face noise complaints from uptight residents who have moved into the area. It is for a number of reasons, but the really good places tend to be fewer these days. Good bands playing good music to an interested audience are definitely in a niche market rather than the norm.

I play in a classic rock cover band and we are as busy as we want to be with gigs at 2-3/month, but the bars we play cater mostly to people in my age group, and our fans are the same way... mostly people in their 40s and 50s.

Everyone has a great time, and we love doing it, but it also means that the venues we play are in older buildings... bars that have been around forever... bars with tiny little stages and no sound guy on staff (or sound system for that matter). Of course we have all our own gear for that, but it would sure be nice to play somewhere that was state-of-the-art.

I guess my point is that I agree with you that the younger crowd (in general) doesn't care much about live bands. The industry is certainly changing in that regard, and it ends up being tougher to find those good venues.