Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

[Red_Label]

Okay... so I was looking at the gallery pics of the Blackstar Artisan amps and I admire those simple, clean builds. I've seen a lot of pics of similar builds lately.

I get that we're dealing with chasis-mounted pots, jacks, tube sockets, etc. But the actual layout of the board with the caps and such on it is very simple. Aren't there any robotic machines out there that can handle this stuff? I've been inside of a lot of amps over the years and the PCB stuff always looks WAY more convoluted, complex, etc than the simple HW amps do. I don't get it. (And I DO understand that creating the actual PC board itself with its circuits is relatively easy.)

So I guess my question is more like "why aren't there any less-expensive non-PCB amps out there with builds similar to HB amps"? I dunno... maybe there are and I just haven't realized it.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Higher quality, more time involved, more often than not you're dealing with something build in teh USA by a person from the USA making the correct wages for doing the work they are doing.

There are lots of reasons but the most important is because they are worth it!

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I know what you mean, but I guess so much of the cost still comes down to what a skilled guy needs to live on for a day versus what can be stamped out in a few seconds.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Higher quality, more time involved, more often than not you're dealing with something build in teh USA by a person from the USA making the correct wages for doing the work they are doing.

There are lots of reasons but the most important is because they are worth it!

I hear ya, and I'm not arguing that it's not worth it per se... but I was curious as to why the overseas companies haven't tried non-PCB layouts yet. Crap... even my American-made Bogner Shiva is PCB. It's built very well (VERY heavy duty chasis and parts throughout), but I would still prefer it to be non-PCB. Would sure be easier to mod or work on!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I hear ya, and I'm not arguing that it's not worth it per se... but I was curious as to why the overseas companies haven't tried non-PCB layouts yet. Crap... even my American-made Bogner Shiva is PCB. It's built very well (VERY heavy duty chasis and parts throughout), but I would still prefer it to be non-PCB. Would sure be easier to mod or work on!

There are some overseas built handwired amps out there...they are pretty cheeply built and IMHO they use the handwired thing just as a sellign point which is not the point butr whatever...

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that if the amp is on a PCB and the PCB is designed correctly there will be no layout issues, in a handwired amp that uses real wire if you don't lay the amp out correctly during the build and trim all the wires and so on to the right lengths there will be lots of noise issues that will have to be fixed...all that takes real skill and most companies churning out amps by the boatload simply refuse to take the time to do things like that or simply do not know how.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

There are some overseas built handwired amps out there...they are pretty cheeply built and IMHO they use the handwired thing just as a sellign point which is not the point butr whatever...

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that if the amp is on a PCB and the PCB is designed correctly there will be no layout issues, in a handwired amp that uses real wire if you don't lay the amp out correctly during the build and trim all the wires and so on to the right lengths there will be lots of noise issues that will have to be fixed...all that takes real skill and most companies churning out amps by the boatload simply refuse to take the time to do things like that or simply do not know how.

Good points.

 

[Uk Ant]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

The basic reason for the cost difference is assembly time. PCB boards may look more complicated and convoluted, and often are, but it takes less time to load the components and then pass on to the soldering stage. Fundamentally they can be done on a production line much more efficiently than point to point.
Thus even a European or american made amp manufacturer can almost halve the cost by going to PCB. I'll use the UK based Cornford as an example. Their PCB roadhouse amps are £700 ish, if you want point to point you need a grand and a half.
That all said why don't some manufacturers make use of the cheap asian labour, even skilled, and get some point to point made out in the far east.
I'm sure they could then bang out, say, a plexi clone for half the price of the european or american equivalent.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I hear ya, and I'm not arguing that it's not worth it per se...

I am.

As a guy who used to do PTP handwiring of boutique audio forty hours a week, I bear no illusions about its superiority.

As any EE will tell you, there's no technical performance advantage in PTP over a well-designed PCB, and a well-designed PCB may well be a better-performing circuit than a poorly laid-out PTP one.

If you've ever had to repair or troubleshoot a complex, crowded PTP rat's nest, you long for PCBs.

The desire for handwiring is due to the success of mojo-marketing to credulous laymen.

 

[Dirtbagg]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Higher quality, more time involved, more often than not you're dealing with something build in teh USA by a person from the USA making the correct wages for doing the work they are doing.

There are lots of reasons but the most important is because they are worth it!

Absolutly, that is why I am building an amp myself

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I am.

As a guy who used to do PTP handwiring of boutique audio forty hours a week, I bear no illusions about its superiority.

As any EE will tell you, there's no technical performance advantage in PTP over a well-designed PCB, and a well-designed PCB may well be a better-performing circuit than a poorly laid-out PTP one.

If you've ever had to repair or troubleshoot a complex, crowded PTP rat's nest, you long for PCBs.

The desire for handwiring is due to the success of mojo-marketing to credulous laymen.

You really believe all that??

 

[macki]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

From my personal point of view I am not sure I believe that handwired is higher quality. I would assume you can tweek the nuances of the wires to get a certain frequency response from the amp but from an eng/manufacturing point of view I would want to figure out what that effect is and how I can consistently recreate it. From what I see handwired is perceived in the music community as being better.

I use to design analog circuits for high speed application for optics. We use to have to test the crap out them - i.e, thermal shock, tempurature extremes, vibration etc.... If you design a pcb correctly then there should be no problem + you get much better consistency (in my opinion). You can still get PCBs made in US/Canada. The actual process of making a PCB does cost a lot of money (mainly on the PCB manufacturers side)- lots of machinery overhead - its actually pretty cool to see them get built up.

Think of extreme situation where they use PCBs....NASA, airplanes etc... and my Tone King Metropolitan :0)

Flip side - some of the handwired amps I have seen have a really nice aesthetic to them! and on the cost side of things for the amp designer/manufacturer it definitely has to take longer so more higher cost to the consumer.

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Mesa/Boogie on point-to-point vs. PCB

Soldano on point-to-point vs. PCB

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I'd just like to mention that even though most people generally agree that "handwired" means point to point circuitry, in point of actual fact, a PCB amp can be "handwired", and as a case in point, my Carslbro tube amp is just that; handwired PCB construction.
A precise technical term for a point to point amp is "HARDwired:
I'm only making the distinction here so maybe some of you might not get confused if you see the terms interchanged somewhere else.
Anyway, usually with a quality "Boutique" hardwired point to point amp , you are paying extra for mil spec parts- transistors, Capacitors, transformers, . As has been mentioned , not only are you paying for military grade assembly ( soldering, lead dress, etc.), but you are also paying for the design engineers hopefully well though out plan.
Then you have final assembly, cabinet grades, and quality control which factor into higher costs when done properly.
last but not least is customer service, which is also part of the price you pay for a great point to point amp.
In an ideal world, all these things come together to produce an amp that is of the highest quality, re;liability, and sounds the best.

As far as PCB, So many are of questionable quality that sometimes we forget there are also Mil-Spec PCB amps that are every bit as desirable as the best point to point.
Of course you'll always have your rat-Nest and cheaply designed/poorly crafted Point to point amps and Printed Circuit Board amps with bad designs , thin fragile boards and thin
fragile traces, cold solder joints and every other possible malady from A to Z .
Most amps probably fall somewhere in between some crummy Chinese PCB amp and your Boutique Mil -spec hardwired amp I guess.

Price point usually determines quality in the marketplace,especially these days, which is a fancy way of saying you get what you pay for. That should hold true with either the Point to Point or the PCB circuit design.
Many people will buy a good quality medium grade amp with a reputation of good reliability and quality and offering good sound at a fair and reasonable price just the same as other people will also buy cheap unreliable bad sounding amps and at the other extreme- Boutique amps- just in different numbers .

 

[trevorus]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Build yourself an amp kit, maybe from Weber. I have built them for a friend, and did my own project amp as well. The labor hours involved are quite high. PCB amps can be designed, stamped out on a machine, and dropped in a chassis, much faster than one can hand-build a PTP amp. Quality is not so black-and-white of an issue. My amp that I play could likely be a lot neater on the layout, but I made sure to keep power and signal far away from each other, and I do get a squeal when I dime one of the channels, but it's never used like that anyways, so I haven't bothered to correct it.

Anyways, that said, I will likely build my own amps from now on unless a manufactured amp really comes out and impresses me within my budget. As far as the boutique builders go, there are some really high dollar amps with negligible "features" that really add to the cost. That's one thing to be on the lookout for.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

You really believe all that??

I do.

It's also the view of every EE with whom I've discussed it.

Less-complex circuits (like a typical tube guitar amp) are easier to service with PTP, but as complexity increases, this changes.

Also note that I am not saying that poorly designed and produced PCBs (and there's lots of them) are superior to good PTP.

Read that last sentence three times.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Flip side - some of the handwired amps I have seen have a really nice aesthetic to them! and on the cost side of things for the amp designer/manufacturer it definitely has to take longer so more higher cost to the consumer.

For sure. That's what started this thread. I was admiring the clean, simple looking insides of the the Blackstar Artisan series amps. I guess that's what got me jonesing for something like that. Whether P2P produces superior sounding amps is still a question for debate. But the P2P sure looks nicer!

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I do.

It's also the view of every EE with whom I've discussed it.

Less-complex circuits (like a typical tube guitar amp) are easier to service with PTP, but as complexity increases, this changes.

Also note that I am not saying that poorly designed and produced PCBs (and there's lots of them) are superior to good PTP.

Read that last sentence three times.

That's what catches my eye I guess. I'm one of those weekend-casual soldering iron users who could do a lot less damage with a simple P2P circuit than I would with a complicated PCB.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Wow, the last few posts are truly mind blowing...

I'm out.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Wow, the last few posts are truly mind blowing...

I'm out.

Well, it'd be cool if you stayed and talked this over. I'd like to know what you think.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

But the P2P sure looks nicer!

I did some of the most beautiful PTP work you've ever seen.

But so what?