Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I'd just like to mention that even though most people generally agree that "handwired" means point to point circuitry, in point of actual fact, a PCB amp can be "handwired", and as a case in point, my Carslbro tube amp is just that; handwired PCB construction.
A precise technical term for a point to point amp is "HARDwired:
I'm only making the distinction here so maybe some of you might not get confused if you see the terms interchanged somewhere else.
Anyway, usually with a quality "Boutique" hardwired point to point amp , you are paying extra for mil spec parts- transistors, Capacitors, transformers, . As has been mentioned , not only are you paying for military grade assembly ( soldering, lead dress, etc.), but you are also paying for the design engineers hopefully well though out plan.
Then you have final assembly, cabinet grades, and quality control which factor into higher costs when done properly.
last but not least is customer service, which is also part of the price you pay for a great point to point amp.
In an ideal world, all these things come together to produce an amp that is of the highest quality, re;liability, and sounds the best.

As far as PCB, So many are of questionable quality that sometimes we forget there are also Mil-Spec PCB amps that are every bit as desirable as the best point to point.
Of course you'll always have your rat-Nest and cheaply designed/poorly crafted Point to point amps and Printed Circuit Board amps with bad designs , thin fragile boards and thin
fragile traces, cold solder joints and every other possible malady from A to Z .
Most amps probably fall somewhere in between some crummy Chinese PCB amp and your Boutique Mil -spec hardwired amp I guess.

Price point usually determines quality in the marketplace,especially these days, which is a fancy way of saying you get what you pay for. That should hold true with either the Point to Point or the PCB circuit design.
Many people will buy a good quality medium grade amp with a reputation of good reliability and quality and offering good sound at a fair and reasonable price just the same as other people will also buy cheap unreliable bad sounding amps and at the other extreme- Boutique amps- just in different numbers .

Good stuff! I must admit that I've been inside my Shiva head on multiple occasions (biasing) and it's definitely heavy duty, mil spec type stuff in there. The chasis metal is some seriously thick stuff. All the components seem to be top notch. But it's pretty "busy" inside there. The P2P designs seem so much cleaner to my eye.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Build yourself an amp kit, maybe from Weber. I have built them for a friend, and did my own project amp as well. The labor hours involved are quite high. PCB amps can be designed, stamped out on a machine, and dropped in a chassis, much faster than one can hand-build a PTP amp. Quality is not so black-and-white of an issue. My amp that I play could likely be a lot neater on the layout, but I made sure to keep power and signal far away from each other, and I do get a squeal when I dime one of the channels, but it's never used like that anyways, so I haven't bothered to correct it.

Anyways, that said, I will likely build my own amps from now on unless a manufactured amp really comes out and impresses me within my budget. As far as the boutique builders go, there are some really high dollar amps with negligible "features" that really add to the cost. That's one thing to be on the lookout for.

I have been known to browse the Weber kits from time to time. Really would like to build one of their plexi kits at some point. Of course, the kits that I want to build are mostly listed as moderate-difficult in terms of build complexity.

 

[kmcguitars]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

PCB boards may look complicated, But once the hard work is done (i.e.) Design & layout. The board can be rapidly produced w/t unskilled laborers ,And wave soldering machines. Hand wiring just as implied, Has to be done one solder joint at a time. Sonic difference can be debated? For me... Hand wiring is old school, And easier to work on, mod & replicate. IMO anything done by hand HAS MOJO!

 

[Tom Huff]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I'd just like to mention that even though most people generally agree that "handwired" means point to point circuitry, in point of actual fact, a PCB amp can be "handwired", and as a case in point, my Carslbro tube amp is just that; handwired PCB construction.
A precise technical term for a point to point amp is "HARDwired:
I'm only making the distinction here so maybe some of you might not get confused if you see the terms interchanged somewhere else.
Anyway, usually with a quality "Boutique" hardwired point to point amp , you are paying extra for mil spec parts- transistors, Capacitors, transformers, . As has been mentioned , not only are you paying for military grade assembly ( soldering, lead dress, etc.), but you are also paying for the design engineers hopefully well though out plan.
Then you have final assembly, cabinet grades, and quality control which factor into higher costs when done properly.
last but not least is customer service, which is also part of the price you pay for a great point to point amp.
In an ideal world, all these things come together to produce an amp that is of the highest quality, re;liability, and sounds the best.

As far as PCB, So many are of questionable quality that sometimes we forget there are also Mil-Spec PCB amps that are every bit as desirable as the best point to point.
Of course you'll always have your rat-Nest and cheaply designed/poorly crafted Point to point amps and Printed Circuit Board amps with bad designs , thin fragile boards and thin
fragile traces, cold solder joints and every other possible malady from A to Z .
Most amps probably fall somewhere in between some crummy Chinese PCB amp and your Boutique Mil -spec hardwired amp I guess.

Price point usually determines quality in the marketplace,especially these days, which is a fancy way of saying you get what you pay for. That should hold true with either the Point to Point or the PCB circuit design.
Many people will buy a good quality medium grade amp with a reputation of good reliability and quality and offering good sound at a fair and reasonable price just the same as other people will also buy cheap unreliable bad sounding amps and at the other extreme- Boutique amps- just in different numbers .

This is really well written. I would sig this if I could. This points out exactly what I thought was intangible about my amps. But, you pretty much wrote down what I was thinking but couldn't put it down in writing.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

and it's definitely heavy duty, mil spec type stuff in there. .

Milspec wiring is a certain type of PTP wiring that follows certain specific rules, particularly noticeable are lots of sharp right angles. Milspec layout is primarily to accommodate tracing, troubleshooting and repair.

It is not suitable for audio because of all the straight lines and sharp bends, which frequently produce audible problems. It looks good, but doesn't always sound good.

 

[Tom Huff]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

That said, this wiring of electronics will be what I buy if I buy anymore amps ever.


EAI1 by theecricket, on Flickr

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

That said, this wiring of electronics will be what I buy if I buy anymore amps ever.


EAI1 by theecricket, on Flickr

Go for it, dude. I like Gibson's "design flaw" one-piece mahogany neck, so more power to ya.

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Higher quality

False

more time involved, more often than not you're dealing with something build in the USA by a person from the USA making the correct wages for doing the work they are doing

True

because they are worth it!

Subjective


...the guy who invented fire covered the common points pretty well.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Really, read this, as previously linked in this thread, above.

This is the truth.

If you think PTP sounds better than good PCB, you've been conned.

These are amps, not sculpture.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Milspec wiring is a certain type of PTP wiring that follows certain specific rules, particularly noticeable are lots of sharp right angles. Milspec layout is primarily to accommodate tracing, troubleshooting and repair.

.

Thanks, I didn't know that Mil-Spec meant a wiring 'type'. I thought it more or less meant of the highest 'grade' ( wire, lead dress, soldering, Contact posts) and thats the way I was using the term.
Its also important to remember that , as you sated, High gain designs do not lend themselves to point to point applications. They are usually "science projects" inside, and you'd find a Gordions knots of wire in there if you tried that with Point to point.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Really, read this, as previously linked in this thread, above.

This is the truth.

If you think PTP sounds better than good PCB, you've been conned.

These are amps, not sculpture.

Yeah... interesting read. If I recall correctly, Reinhold Bogner references that exact article when stating why he also uses PCBs. And honestly, I've got nothing against PCBs (except for the fact that I don't like using soldering irons around them). Just wouldn't mind have a P2P wired amp around for variety.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Thanks, I didn't know that Mil-Spec meant a wiring 'type'. I thought it more or less meant of the highest 'grade' ( wire, lead dress, soldering, Contact posts) and thats the way I was using the term.
Its also important to remember that , as you sated, High gain designs do not lend themselves to point to point applications. They are usually "science projects" inside, and you'd find a Gordions knots of wire in there if you tried that with Point to point.

Ditto. I just always used the term interchangably with "heavy duty" and "highest grade" I guess.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Another point that I guess I'd like to make is that it seems that many of the manufacturers who use PCBs seem to like to mount their pots, jacks, etc directly to the PCB (of course, because it's quicker/cheaper) and that just plain sucks. Talk about disposable.

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Another point that I guess I'd like to make is that it seems that many of the manufacturers who use PCBs seem to like to mount their pots, jacks, etc directly to the PCB (of course, because it's quicker/cheaper) and that just plain sucks. Talk about disposable.

If it can be done well, it can also be done poorly...that would apply to both PTP and PCB.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Another point that I guess I'd like to make is that it seems that many of the manufacturers who use PCBs seem to like to mount their pots, jacks, etc directly to the PCB (of course, because it's quicker/cheaper) and that just plain sucks. Talk about disposable.

Well, a nuisance, for certain!

Check that link for the lowdown.

From a purely sonic standpoint, though, PCB mounting makes sense -- at least theoretically, in some specific applications.

 

[trevorus]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I have been known to browse the Weber kits from time to time. Really would like to build one of their plexi kits at some point. Of course, the kits that I want to build are mostly listed as moderate-difficult in terms of build complexity.

I will say, the plexi kit is somewhat of a pain in the rump because of the power capacitor board. It is the same chassis as the JTM45, which is simpler, and also fits better. I had to get creative to mount the power board in a safe manner, and also, the power transformer that comes with it put out too high of a voltage for the caps provided, so I had to use an alternate winding (thankfully they provided) to bring everything more within spec. This also meant that I had to re-value the bias circuit a bit to allow it to work with the EL34's.

Oddly, I did not have this sort of trouble working on converting an Epi BC30 to a Plexi, using the power transformer that came with it, and just making sure to spec the power caps high on the voltage scale as was prudent.

 

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Just wouldn't mind have a P2P wired amp around for variety.

Get an old Sunn. They're cheap and usually beautifully made, great tubes.

Only drawback is they need extinct 600V capacitors when you do the obligatory cap job on them, so you kind of have to make them.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Get an old Sunn. They're cheap and usually beautifully made, great tubes.

Only drawback is they need extinct 600V capacitors when you do the obligatory cap job on them, so you kind of have to make them.

Good to know. I've actually been contemplating getting an old Traynor for some time now -- because I've got two newer Traynor tube amps that have been awesome.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I was thinking that Bogner pointed to Randall Smith's article on PCBs, but it appears that he references Andy Marshall's article (THD). A very interesting read on PCBs as well...

http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/Pcboard.php

 

[aleclee]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

A company that uses more expensive construction is also more likely to use top shelf components. Good parts (especially transformers) are pricey.