Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

[Bezmotivnik]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

A company that uses more expensive construction is also more likely to use top shelf components. Good parts (especially transformers) are pricey.

That's true, why skimp when you're already paying for pricey build? If there's any serious difference in the results, that's where it's coming from, not that it has wires rather than traces.

But pro-end PCB gear also typically uses higher-end components. I was impressed when I first opened up some SWR Pro-Series stuff. Of course, the move with bass is now to transformerless lightweight stuff, which must be hugely cheaper to produce.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

It just occurred to me that the title of this thread answers its own question. "Hand made" costs more than "mass produced". Amps, shoes, whatever.

I am.

As a guy who used to do PTP handwiring of boutique audio forty hours a week, I bear no illusions about its superiority.

As any EE will tell you, there's no technical performance advantage in PTP over a well-designed PCB, and a well-designed PCB may well be a better-performing circuit than a poorly laid-out PTP one.

If you've ever had to repair or troubleshoot a complex, crowded PTP rat's nest, you long for PCBs.

The desire for handwiring is due to the success of mojo-marketing to credulous laymen.

Reading through this thread again it occurred to me that the quality difference between booteek "point-2-point" amps and PCB amps has everything to do with craftsmanship versus mass production and very little to do with the specific construction method. Small production runs are easier and cheaper with turret board construction. Perfecting the layout of a PCB and then putting it into production has a high up-front cost.

However, there's nothing electronically better about a turret or tag board amp - or even true point-to-point - compared to a great circuit executed with high quality PCB construction. Let me pick the transformers, speaker(s), cab, tubes, capacitors and resistors, and I can get you great tone regardless of how the amp is put together.

One aspect of amp construction no one has touched on is that PCB construction makes it much easier to incorporate solid state elements into the amp's circuit. PCBs also allow for board-mounted pots & tube sockets which generally suck (as has been previously stated). Finally, PCB construction seems to encourage layouts with components just packed together. Done right, it's fine but you can take a perfectly good tube amp circuit and make it sound like crap by using the smallest possible components and packing them all together into the tightest layout.

It takes a lot of time and skill to get a layout right. Frankly, it's easier much not to screw up the layout with turret boards/P2P than it is to do a PCB layout correctly. Heck, I can design a good turret board layout but have no idea how to design a PCB and make the most of a "ground plane".

There are some really cool applications of solid state devices in vacuum tube amps. Unfortunately, most of the time in PCB construction amps it looks like engineers go way over the top adding a bunch of solid state devices to the signal path instead of making the most of the tubes they've got (if any). My Blues Jr. is a perfect example. The basic circuit looks great, but there's a lot of solid state crap added to it. My point is proven by the fact that one triode in V2 is unused. That's right - connected to absolutely nothing. Why not make a "Fat" switch that uses that extra triode? Because ICs are much cheaper I guess.

One last note is that I've seen plenty of pics of "point to point" construction that looks like crap. Wires flapping in the wind, relatively heavy components secured only by their solder joints, random grounding, you name it.

Cheers,

Chip

P.S. Now THIS amp built by John Hynes is a work of art IMHO

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Yeah...

 

[Tom Huff]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Go for it, dude. I like Gibson's "design flaw" one-piece mahogany neck, so more power to ya.

I also am a sucker for the Gibson "design flaw" neck.

Someone mentioned get an old Sunn if you want a ptp amp around.

Here's the guts of my old Sunn Spectrum 2.


SANY0008 by theecricket, on Flickr

 

[Tom Huff]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Having awesome hand wired amps doesn't mean I have anything against a pcb amp.


2004El Diablo60.3 by theecricket, on Flickr

 

[glassman]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

As a builder that makes his own eyelet boards, I use this type of construction for its flexibility; it's far easier for me to change my template in the case of a component spacing/placement change than it is to have a new series of PC boards made to facilitate that change.

PC boards have some clear advantages such as mistake-proofed wire routing which helps tremendously in making sure #100 sounds just like #3. The same can be accomplished with PTP but it requires you to template (or otherwise enforce) your wire routing procedure.

PTP is generally more serviceable but a PC board can be made for ease of service too...but it can get expensive. I've seen some turreted PC boards that were pretty impressive.

Hand-wired doesn't mean higher quality...and PC board doesn't mean lower cost.

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

I was thinking that Bogner pointed to Randall Smith's article on PCBs, but it appears that he references Andy Marshall's article (THD). A very interesting read on PCBs as well...

http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/Pcboard.php

Great text, thanks for the link! Makes me even happier to own a THD amp.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

These Blackstar Artisan series amps have some very clean layouts (to my eyes). :bowdown:

Artisan 15H

Artisan 30H

Artisan 100

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Great text, thanks for the link! Makes me even happier to own a THD amp.

No problem. I wouldn't mind owning the Univalve or the Flexi 50 based on what I've seen and read. But I've never had the chance to plug into one.

 

[joelap]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

#1) Someone please explain to me why board mounting pots/jacks/switches is inherently a bad thing, if in the end they are screwed to the faceplate of the amp anyway? The pc board in this case is providing additional support to the pot/jack/switch in the form of short, thick metal connecting it to another board which is connected to however many other components... if the pots are still screwed to the chassis, how is there a difference? If the front and back panels are given a separate "daughter" board so a break or crack to that board doesnt require replacing the entire circuit board, I see no reason why there's an issue really.

#2) I can't believe it's almost 2011 and we are still having discussions on PCB vs. PTP. Good luck finding an amp like a Triple Rectifier with its features done PTP first of all. Second of all, if done properly, a PCB amp will be better than any PTP amp. Period. Reasons:
- All high impedance traces (which tend to pick up hum/interference) can be made so short they are nonexistent, whereas PTP (unless everything is mounted directly on the tube) has wires going from the tube to the eyelet board, acting essentially as an antenna.
- Power supply capacitors can be placed DIRECTLY NEXT TO the tube being powered from that filter cap, eliminating potential sources of hum in this scenario.
- The ability to incorporate solid state components in non-amplification instances. IE, using a 5V source to use MOSFETs acting as switches to switch on/off cathode bypass caps, for instance, without having to run wires at ground potential or cathode potential to a switch on the front panel and back to the board. This can also be done as a tuner mute function, or allow for constant current source biasing which is popular with solid state amps / hifi.
- Repeatability. As mentioned, #3 will sound the same as #100

I can go on further but here's the story: a properly designed circuit board will sound "just fine". Problem is, around the time circuit boards made their way into amps is around the time when other things started sucking too. Like JCM800s and The 80s and a flock of seagulls. Cost cutting measures were also in effect to maximize profitability.

Add to the fact that anyone taking the time to have a run of high quality circuit boards made is probably smart enough (or bored enough) NOT to just clone an existing amp.

 

[d1dsj]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

As long as service/ repairs aren't an issue I'm not too bothered. Unfortunately when I wanted a Mesa Amp I did a bit of research with local Amp Techs and I didn't like what I heard about people waiting 3-6 months + for PCB at a cost of £200+. Whilst I realise their will be loads of trouble free amps out there I could not afford new with warranty and I'm always cautious when it comes to used amps. If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck so I went a different route. I can see why handwired amps cost so much as time is money.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

#1) Someone please explain to me why board mounting pots/jacks/switches is inherently a bad thing, if in the end they are screwed to the faceplate of the amp anyway? The pc board in this case is providing additional support to the pot/jack/switch in the form of short, thick metal connecting it to another board which is connected to however many other components... if the pots are still screwed to the chassis, how is there a difference? If the front and back panels are given a separate "daughter" board so a break or crack to that board doesnt require replacing the entire circuit board, I see no reason why there's an issue really.

Unfortunately, many of those manufacturers who mount the pots and jacks directly to the board also fail to support them directly to the chasis. So every time you unplug a cable, or bump a knob, you're risking breaking contacts in the PCB. That's why I tend to think that in general, direct PCB mounting is a "bad" thing. When I spend hundreds or thousads of dollars on something, I want to think that it'll last decades with minimal maintenance and not be disposable, like so many things we buy these days.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

This topic keeps getting beaten to death again and again. Here are my thoughts, distilled into a few simple points.

1. PTP amps cost more because they take much more time to make. They also tend to be amps that are a lot higher on the quality scale in terms of design, parts, and manufacturing, all of which have nothing to do with the type of wiring.

2. PTP in and of itself does not make an amp better or worse. It is completely possible to build a crappy PTP amp, or an amazing PCB amp.

3. A good component layout is one of the differences between a good amp and a great amp. You certainly can get a great layout with PTP if you know what you're doing and you have the time and patience to wire every single amp the exact same way, but it is much, much easier and more realistic to use PCB for this.

4. There is zero evidence to say that a stranded copper wire is any more or less conductive than a good copper PCB trace, especially when it comes to audio signals.

5. With PTP you're limited to very simple circuits, which depending on your perspective is either good or bad. A high gain channel switching amp would be impossible with PTP.

6. Many, many classic amplifiers use PCB construction in whole or in part. Oh, and nearly every pedal made since the mid 70's is PCB as well. Nobody complains about a TS-808, a script logo Phase 90, or an original Rat having a PCB.

7. Unfortunately, PTP has become somewhat of a marketing buzzword nowadays. People make the mistake of assuming that PTP is a measure of amp quality, when all it really is is an antiquated production method that has no real value in terms of tone, either positive or negative (aside from the consistency thing mentioned above).

8. I have nothing against PTP amps specifically. I've played a few that were really nice. I am under no illusions that they're that nice because they are PTP wired though, in the same way that I don't assume a Ferrari is fast because it's red.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

5. With PTP you're limited to very simple circuits, which depending on your perspective is either good or bad. A high gain channel switching amp would be impossible with PTP.

If you're talking about true point-to-point as in no turret or eyelet board, just components dangling on tube sockets, pots & terminal strips, then you may be right. However, there are hand-wired "high gain channel switching amps" getting built out there. Ever seen a London Amps "Standard"?

BTW if you think a Blackface Super Reverb (or any of the AB763 circuit amps) is a "very simple circuit", try building one.

#1) Someone please explain to me why board mounting pots/jacks/switches is inherently a bad thing, if in the end they are screwed to the faceplate of the amp anyway? The pc board in this case is providing additional support to the pot/jack/switch in the form of short, thick metal connecting it to another board which is connected to however many other components... if the pots are still screwed to the chassis, how is there a difference? If the front and back panels are given a separate "daughter" board so a break or crack to that board doesnt require replacing the entire circuit board, I see no reason why there's an issue really.

#2) I can't believe it's almost 2011 and we are still having discussions on PCB vs. PTP. Good luck finding an amp like a Triple Rectifier with its features done PTP first of all. Second of all, if done properly, a PCB amp will be better than any PTP amp. Period. Reasons:
- All high impedance traces (which tend to pick up hum/interference) can be made so short they are nonexistent, whereas PTP (unless everything is mounted directly on the tube) has wires going from the tube to the eyelet board, acting essentially as an antenna.
- Power supply capacitors can be placed DIRECTLY NEXT TO the tube being powered from that filter cap, eliminating potential sources of hum in this scenario.
- The ability to incorporate solid state components in non-amplification instances. IE, using a 5V source to use MOSFETs acting as switches to switch on/off cathode bypass caps, for instance, without having to run wires at ground potential or cathode potential to a switch on the front panel and back to the board. This can also be done as a tuner mute function, or allow for constant current source biasing which is popular with solid state amps / hifi.
- Repeatability. As mentioned, #3 will sound the same as #100

I can go on further but here's the story: a properly designed circuit board will sound "just fine". Problem is, around the time circuit boards made their way into amps is around the time when other things started sucking too. Like JCM800s and The 80s and a flock of seagulls. Cost cutting measures were also in effect to maximize profitability.

Add to the fact that anyone taking the time to have a run of high quality circuit boards made is probably smart enough (or bored enough) NOT to just clone an existing amp.

The difference in impedance between a good, sturdy PCB trace and 2" of 22 AWG wire is negligible.

Physical placement of the power rail filter caps is irrelevant without the context of the grounding scheme. The design goal should be to have the current loop for each section of the circuit as small as possible. That means each filter cap ideally should be located right next to the circuit it is filtering DC voltage for. It's no easier to do this with PCB than it is with a turret board or true P-2-P.

You want JFET switching? Add a little piece of breadboard. BFD.

Repeatable layout IS an advantage of a properly designed and tested PCB. Henry Ford would have liked PCB construction.

Not sure where you're headed with the last comment about cloning old amp designs. Frankly, it's a hell of a lot of fun to start with one of Leo Fender's classics and figure out where you can go with it, both in terms of the circuit and the layout. Victoria Amps and Allen Amps both seem to do pretty well with "improved" versions of classic circuits. Is a Tweed Deluxe (5E3) boring to you?

Oh, and if you'd ever worked on a Fender Blues Jr., or a Crate or .... you'd know exactly why PCB mounted pots, jacks and tube sockets suck.

Chip

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

There are some really cool applications of solid state devices in vacuum tube amps. Unfortunately, most of the time in PCB construction amps it looks like engineers go way over the top adding a bunch of solid state devices to the signal path instead of making the most of the tubes they've got (if any). My Blues Jr. is a perfect example. The basic circuit looks great, but there's a lot of solid state crap added to it. My point is proven by the fact that one triode in V2 is unused. That's right - connected to absolutely nothing. Why not make a "Fat" switch that uses that extra triode? Because ICs are much cheaper I guess.

If a Blues Jr is what you're using as reference for all PCB amps, then no wonder you think they're crappy. The Hot Rod series amps are poorly designed and the components used are lousy. They're a good example of a bad PCB amp (board mounted tube sockets are always a terrible idea).
Pop open one of the reissue series USA made Fenders. Those are much nicer amps. They have the identical circuit to the originals, just laid out on a PCB instead of eyelet board.

 

[Dr.Mavashi]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Are cornford MK series properly hand wired units?

 

[Gforce9]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Interesting topic. A good example of a PCB line of amps is Tone King. Great sound. Not inexpensive, either. I have to say I'm nervous of the cheap PCB mounted jacks, though. It would be interesting to know their maintenance history.
I have an 18w Dr. Z Carmen Ghia. Dr. Z is on the more inexpensive side of the hand-built stuff. While it may not be entirely fair, a Blues jr., for example, is not comparable in tone, output, character, build quality, reliability,........ Dr.Z's input jacks will be here after a tornado!

To answer the question in the OP, parts and labor I think is the best answer. Profit, too. Can't blame someone for wanting to make some extra on his idea and labor. I won't be running out to buy a Matchless Independence w/reverb for $3500, though. A Caddy Deville costs more than Geo's Metro. Wave solder machines and robotics have simplified the PCB process. After the cost of the machines (which, I'm sure, is not cheap) is covered, volume = lower manufacturing costs.

 

[d1dsj]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

Are cornford MK series properly hand wired units?

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

The answer to the question: Labor + Prestige.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Hand-wired amps... why so expensive?

If you're talking about true point-to-point as in no turret or eyelet board, just components dangling on tube sockets, pots & terminal strips, then you may be right. However, there are hand-wired "high gain channel switching amps" getting built out there. Ever seen a London Amps "Standard"?

BTW if you think a Blackface Super Reverb (or any of the AB763 circuit amps) is a "very simple circuit", try building one.

Relatively speaking, an AB763, or any old Fender circuit really, is dead simple.