Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
- Thread starter Lewguitar
- Start date
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
ThisDyingSoul76
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
I love my klones. I'll probably never get to try a real one. The closest I've ever come to a real Klon was when Jeff Beck played the local casino in 2011. I was less than 5 feet from his pedalboard.
I can say that whatever part of the sound that translates through a home theatre system is there with my klones. The builder even tracked down a batch of the magic diodes.
I typically use it to push my dirty channel or another pedal for leads. It adds a bit of emphasis to the low mids and treble and I like a bit if it's own grit mixed in.
I tend to jump back and forth between the klones and Marshall Bluesbreaker based OD's.... or, I dig out the TL Pedals King Klon. Best if both worlds.
I love my klones. I'll probably never get to try a real one. The closest I've ever come to a real Klon was when Jeff Beck played the local casino in 2011. I was less than 5 feet from his pedalboard.
I can say that whatever part of the sound that translates through a home theatre system is there with my klones. The builder even tracked down a batch of the magic diodes.
I typically use it to push my dirty channel or another pedal for leads. It adds a bit of emphasis to the low mids and treble and I like a bit if it's own grit mixed in.
I tend to jump back and forth between the klones and Marshall Bluesbreaker based OD's.... or, I dig out the TL Pedals King Klon. Best if both worlds.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
I think they try to do a component by component clone. Bill did not copyright or file documents to legally protect his Klon design apparently.
I know the PCE Aluminum Falcon I used to use and which Warren Haynes used was a direct copy of Bill’s circuit board lay out and Bill wrote to PCE and asked PCE to stop but he wouldn’t. David, the guy behind PCE, put their letters back and forth on Facebook and presented them as if Bill was the bad guy, but PCE did rip off Bill’s design.
Rubbed me the wrong way. David’s defense was a “you didn’t protect yourself so it’s perfectly legal for me to rip you off” sort of justification.
When I got my first Klon KTR I sold my Aluminum Falcons quite easily. They were very good...but the Klon KTR is slightly less grainy sounding. I like it better.
I think they try to do a component by component clone. Bill did not copyright or file documents to legally protect his Klon design apparently.
I know the PCE Aluminum Falcon I used to use and which Warren Haynes used was a direct copy of Bill’s circuit board lay out and Bill wrote to PCE and asked PCE to stop but he wouldn’t. David, the guy behind PCE, put their letters back and forth on Facebook and presented them as if Bill was the bad guy, but PCE did rip off Bill’s design.
Rubbed me the wrong way. David’s defense was a “you didn’t protect yourself so it’s perfectly legal for me to rip you off” sort of justification.
When I got my first Klon KTR I sold my Aluminum Falcons quite easily. They were very good...but the Klon KTR is slightly less grainy sounding. I like it better.
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Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Depends on the builder. The Soul Food, for example, isn't really a copy although it's similar.
The only remaining "mystery" to the pedal is the diodes. Bill Finnegan has claimed that only he has a NOS stash of a particular manufacturers diodes (1N34A's) and that, essentially, those and only those specific diodes make a Klon a Klon. Personally, I think the mystique of the Klon is well beyond cork sniffer territory. The new KTR, which is supposed to be the only real Klon, in cork sniffer terms, cant be. It's all surface mount with ceramic capacitors replacing the film caps used in the originals. "We" argue that the new PCB versions of older, point to point, hand wired amps are inferior and "we" even argue that the newer amps with surface mount components on wave soldered boards are inferior to the through-hole PCB designs that preceded them. I'm partly playing devils advocate here, but the way I see it, you cant have it both ways. Personally, I cant hear any more of a difference between a well regarded "klone" and an original Klon versus the newer KTR and an original Klon. And, in my one-to-one DIY clone, I cant hear any difference between 4 different pairs of germanium diodes, all matched within two or three hundreds of a volt of .35v (forward voltage drop). I'd have to build 4 versions exactly the same with the only difference being the different type, matched diodes and A-B it all to be sure ... I'm simply not that vested. I've played around enough to be skeptical of the specific diode thing. Then again, I don't have an original Klon at hand.
The point being, there are plenty of builders making component by component copies ... with one caveat ... aside from different brands or types of capacitors and resistors (of the same values as in the original, which the KTR is "guilty" of as well, and more) the difference comes down to the specific brand (and maybe type) of diodes. Whether that difference disqualifies the pedal from being a component-by-component copy/clone, I suppose, depends on how you look at it.
That said, some builders are also making versions of the circuit with what they may see as improvements. But if you want a "clone" there are reputable builders who make them and market them as clones.
Depends on the builder. The Soul Food, for example, isn't really a copy although it's similar.
The only remaining "mystery" to the pedal is the diodes. Bill Finnegan has claimed that only he has a NOS stash of a particular manufacturers diodes (1N34A's) and that, essentially, those and only those specific diodes make a Klon a Klon. Personally, I think the mystique of the Klon is well beyond cork sniffer territory. The new KTR, which is supposed to be the only real Klon, in cork sniffer terms, cant be. It's all surface mount with ceramic capacitors replacing the film caps used in the originals. "We" argue that the new PCB versions of older, point to point, hand wired amps are inferior and "we" even argue that the newer amps with surface mount components on wave soldered boards are inferior to the through-hole PCB designs that preceded them. I'm partly playing devils advocate here, but the way I see it, you cant have it both ways. Personally, I cant hear any more of a difference between a well regarded "klone" and an original Klon versus the newer KTR and an original Klon. And, in my one-to-one DIY clone, I cant hear any difference between 4 different pairs of germanium diodes, all matched within two or three hundreds of a volt of .35v (forward voltage drop). I'd have to build 4 versions exactly the same with the only difference being the different type, matched diodes and A-B it all to be sure ... I'm simply not that vested. I've played around enough to be skeptical of the specific diode thing. Then again, I don't have an original Klon at hand.
The point being, there are plenty of builders making component by component copies ... with one caveat ... aside from different brands or types of capacitors and resistors (of the same values as in the original, which the KTR is "guilty" of as well, and more) the difference comes down to the specific brand (and maybe type) of diodes. Whether that difference disqualifies the pedal from being a component-by-component copy/clone, I suppose, depends on how you look at it.
That said, some builders are also making versions of the circuit with what they may see as improvements. But if you want a "clone" there are reputable builders who make them and market them as clones.
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
This is interesting to me. So a Klone with PCB wiring will have differences with a real Klon, and even real PTP Klons have differences due to component tolerances. I would assume this goes with any clone of an old amp or effect. It is a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) where modeling could model these differences, diode types, PTP/PCB construction, etc.
I have no side to take here, but I find this idea of something that is a mutually agreed 'holy grail' pedal has gotten this much attention.
This is interesting to me. So a Klone with PCB wiring will have differences with a real Klon, and even real PTP Klons have differences due to component tolerances. I would assume this goes with any clone of an old amp or effect. It is a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) where modeling could model these differences, diode types, PTP/PCB construction, etc.
I have no side to take here, but I find this idea of something that is a mutually agreed 'holy grail' pedal has gotten this much attention.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
In this interview ( https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20210-builder-profile-klons-bill-finnegan ) Bill claims there is no difference in sound between a Silver or Gold Klon or the KTR. He goes into the differences and then gives his reasons why those differences don’t change the sound.
My PCE Aluminum Falcons did sound better than the Soul Food to me, and my KTR sounds slightly better to me than the PCE AF1. Must be the magic diodes...Bill claims they are a must.
But in the interview he also goes into detail about the several years he spent sourcing capacitors and other components for the KTR and claims they make a difference too.
It’s a good interview.
Bill sells his products for a very reasonable price. He is not the one responsible for the high aftermarket prices or for the hype.
In this interview ( https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20210-builder-profile-klons-bill-finnegan ) Bill claims there is no difference in sound between a Silver or Gold Klon or the KTR. He goes into the differences and then gives his reasons why those differences don’t change the sound.
My PCE Aluminum Falcons did sound better than the Soul Food to me, and my KTR sounds slightly better to me than the PCE AF1. Must be the magic diodes...Bill claims they are a must.
But in the interview he also goes into detail about the several years he spent sourcing capacitors and other components for the KTR and claims they make a difference too.
It’s a good interview.
Bill sells his products for a very reasonable price. He is not the one responsible for the high aftermarket prices or for the hype.
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Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Yeah, seen that before. And BF has since gone on to admit that the diodes are 1N34A's, from what I've read anyway. I don't think he has gone beyond that and mentioned the specific manufacturer. I give him all the credit in the world for coming up with an original circuit instead of doing another tube screamer tweak. He deserves that. Doesn't mean everything he says is gospel. I have a hard time envisioning him soldering leads onto surface mount capacitors for two years to audition them to pick just the right ones so they sound the same as the originals ... call me cynical. I believe he did it, but just to make sure that he couldn't hear a difference (or no more than a very subtle difference). But not for 2 years due to some audition and selection process.
About the diode thing ... he could run out of his magical diodes, buy a bunch of Russian D9E,J,V or whatever, measure and sort them for his desired forward voltage drop, remove the existing marking bands with acetone and re-paint them with black paint to match the look of the diodes he currently uses. All he would have to do is not say a word about it. Sales of the KTR wouldn't change in the least. Those who want a KTR, because it's the only real Klon, or for any other reason, would still go and get a KTR and nobody that got one would hear anything different to complain about.
I don't begrudge anyone buying a KTR or an original Klon for that matter. If that's what they want, that's what they want. It doesn't matter if there is a tangible difference, a subtle but perceived difference or just a flat out imaginary difference. All that matters is how it sounds (and feels) to the player and what he or she believes. I'm a cynical SOB and anything that I offer that is of a contrarian nature is only my opinion.
Yeah, seen that before. And BF has since gone on to admit that the diodes are 1N34A's, from what I've read anyway. I don't think he has gone beyond that and mentioned the specific manufacturer. I give him all the credit in the world for coming up with an original circuit instead of doing another tube screamer tweak. He deserves that. Doesn't mean everything he says is gospel. I have a hard time envisioning him soldering leads onto surface mount capacitors for two years to audition them to pick just the right ones so they sound the same as the originals ... call me cynical. I believe he did it, but just to make sure that he couldn't hear a difference (or no more than a very subtle difference). But not for 2 years due to some audition and selection process.
About the diode thing ... he could run out of his magical diodes, buy a bunch of Russian D9E,J,V or whatever, measure and sort them for his desired forward voltage drop, remove the existing marking bands with acetone and re-paint them with black paint to match the look of the diodes he currently uses. All he would have to do is not say a word about it. Sales of the KTR wouldn't change in the least. Those who want a KTR, because it's the only real Klon, or for any other reason, would still go and get a KTR and nobody that got one would hear anything different to complain about.
I don't begrudge anyone buying a KTR or an original Klon for that matter. If that's what they want, that's what they want. It doesn't matter if there is a tangible difference, a subtle but perceived difference or just a flat out imaginary difference. All that matters is how it sounds (and feels) to the player and what he or she believes. I'm a cynical SOB and anything that I offer that is of a contrarian nature is only my opinion.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Good. Because I just picked up a second KTR for my other pedalboard. Got one for both now.
I’m a bit less cynical than you because I do hear and sense a difference in Bill’s Klon compared to the four clones I’ve owned.
Good. Because I just picked up a second KTR for my other pedalboard. Got one for both now.
I’m a bit less cynical than you because I do hear and sense a difference in Bill’s Klon compared to the four clones I’ve owned.
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Ayrton
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
I would sell it with the quickness. No pedal is worth that kind of coin (to me). Yes, the Klon is a great boost, but a $50 Soul Food is close enough to fool anyone in the audience.
True story, I passed on an original for $350 because I thought it was too much money for just a boost pedal.
I would sell it with the quickness. No pedal is worth that kind of coin (to me). Yes, the Klon is a great boost, but a $50 Soul Food is close enough to fool anyone in the audience.
True story, I passed on an original for $350 because I thought it was too much money for just a boost pedal.
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Lewguitar
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Yes. But you build guitars to make yourself happy and satisfy your own unique vision first and foremost.
The audience comes second. Right?
Yes. But you build guitars to make yourself happy and satisfy your own unique vision first and foremost.
The audience comes second. Right?
Ayrton
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
The original Klon had a PCB but it used through hole components. They were hand soldered. The pots and jacks were chassis mounted and hard wired. The KTR uses surface mount components on a wave soldered board. The jacks and pots are board mounted. Bill Finnegan built the originals himself. The KTR is farmed out. The component types aren't the same ... through hole versus SMT, ceramic caps versus film caps etc. The thing that remains the same, according to Bill Finnegan, are the two germanium diodes.
But as I stated, I was playing devils advocate. I don't believe that the more modernized construction type or the component type differences necessarily translate to sonic differences. If they do, they are probably subtle. The only fact is that the new version isn't built the same way as the original. In that regard, the KTR is just as different compared to the original Klons as some of the "klones" are. So, playing devils advocate again ... is a KTR really a Klon?
The original Klon had a PCB but it used through hole components. They were hand soldered. The pots and jacks were chassis mounted and hard wired. The KTR uses surface mount components on a wave soldered board. The jacks and pots are board mounted. Bill Finnegan built the originals himself. The KTR is farmed out. The component types aren't the same ... through hole versus SMT, ceramic caps versus film caps etc. The thing that remains the same, according to Bill Finnegan, are the two germanium diodes.
But as I stated, I was playing devils advocate. I don't believe that the more modernized construction type or the component type differences necessarily translate to sonic differences. If they do, they are probably subtle. The only fact is that the new version isn't built the same way as the original. In that regard, the KTR is just as different compared to the original Klons as some of the "klones" are. So, playing devils advocate again ... is a KTR really a Klon?
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
This is sort of what I was getting at. To the people that own a real deal Klon, probably not, but it is hard not to be biased by all that money it might go for if they sell.
This is sort of what I was getting at. To the people that own a real deal Klon, probably not, but it is hard not to be biased by all that money it might go for if they sell.
Powdered Toast Man
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
I built a BYOC Silver Pony. It sounded good but it turns out I had other existing pedals on my board in the same ball park. Also the Klone DID NOT get along with my fuzz (Ampeg Scrambler). So it was absolutely useless to me as a clean or volume boost.
It lasted a week on my board and I recently sold it at a huge loss compared to what I paid for the kit.
The Klon is ok but if you've already got a low gain OD on your board the Klon isn't going to do anything you don't already have.
Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
I built a BYOC Silver Pony. It sounded good but it turns out I had other existing pedals on my board in the same ball park. Also the Klone DID NOT get along with my fuzz (Ampeg Scrambler). So it was absolutely useless to me as a clean or volume boost.
It lasted a week on my board and I recently sold it at a huge loss compared to what I paid for the kit.
The Klon is ok but if you've already got a low gain OD on your board the Klon isn't going to do anything you don't already have.
Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Amen. No one in the audience can tell anything apart from anything. Who the hell cares?
Or...
Remember that time you walked into the a music store with a buddy, plugged a sweet old guitar into a sweet old amp, and your friend said, "Dude, you gotta buy that! The audience will love it!"
Yeah, me neither.
Amen. No one in the audience can tell anything apart from anything. Who the hell cares?
Or...
Remember that time you walked into the a music store with a buddy, plugged a sweet old guitar into a sweet old amp, and your friend said, "Dude, you gotta buy that! The audience will love it!"
Yeah, me neither.
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
And this is why no one here makes a killing as musicians here.
And this is why no one here makes a killing as musicians here.
L
Little Pigbacon
Guest
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
The audience is lucky if they get a half-decent mix that isn’t loud enough to give them colon cancer. Looking to them to justify a tone quest purchase is comically misguided.
The audience is lucky if they get a half-decent mix that isn’t loud enough to give them colon cancer. Looking to them to justify a tone quest purchase is comically misguided.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Has Bill Finnegan stopped making Klons again?
Yeah. I play what I play to satisfy and inspire me.
If I’m happy, then the audience gets to hear me play some inspired music.
If I’m not happy or comfortable they don’t.
But whether the audience can tell whether I’m using a Klon or a Soul Food has never crossed my mind!
BTW, I did a little gig last night and used my Mad Professor Simble pedal. What a GREAT pedal!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkK4AYMylLs
Yeah. I play what I play to satisfy and inspire me.
If I’m happy, then the audience gets to hear me play some inspired music.
If I’m not happy or comfortable they don’t.
But whether the audience can tell whether I’m using a Klon or a Soul Food has never crossed my mind!
BTW, I did a little gig last night and used my Mad Professor Simble pedal. What a GREAT pedal!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkK4AYMylLs