Has modelling "topped out"?

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and ask why does any company need to do anything new??? I'm sure we could all name an amp that we would buy if we had the money and it would be pretty damn satisfying on a lot of levels...it would just be expensive that's all. Most of the stuff we all dig heaps is old anyway, yet amp companies are just trying to come up with new crap to hype more people into spending more money on their products.

I don't think anyone here would actually care about "new" technology all that much anyway deep down...I mean what do you want your amp to do that would be "new" technology? ...perhaps you'd like it to sense what you want to play by tapping into your brainwaves and you wouldn't even have to play it yourself, you could just think it :banana:

Sure there needs to be good stuff at cheap prices so as to make quality things available to all people, but do we really want to kill the need or desire to own a top notch piece of gear like a Bogner? Imagine how pissed off Mr. Bogner would be if someone came up with a way to get every possible bit of tone and dynamics that sounded and felt exactly like one of his amps...but for the price of a Gorilla amp??? Then Mr. Bogner would go broke!

I think that if anything would be a good development in the amp world, it would be that manufacturers focused more on QUALITY rather than QUANTITY. Go back to old school ways of doing things even though they might not be the cheapest route to take...and maybe even figure out how to make it cheaper! I don't think there is one among us who wouldn't appreciate that. If everyone focused more on the un-comprimised quality of their products (ahem...GIBSON!) then this world would be a far better place...rather than focusing on how to put more bells and whistles on everything!

Just my daily rant

Well it's rather difficult to play a 5e3 in my dorm room...

EDIT
(not that I actually have a 5e3 now, for a very specific reason)

 

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Also, I believe most guitarists are full of sh1t, and would fail a double-blind listening test between tubes and Line 6's top of the line product. Now, before you tell me why I'm wrong, and that you'd never fail that test, of course you are the exception

I'm sure that's why van halen used a peavey rage 258.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I agree with JB from Hell and Mincer. It may be topped out for now, but only because they're still recouping from the R&D money they've spent thus far.

As far as I'm concerned, the computer technology is good enough to create great preamp tones and FX. I mean....how much better does it need to be than a POD Pro XT? Where they still fall short is in touch responsive power sections.

I saw Todd Mohr from Big Head Todd and the Monsters a few years ago, and he had the most sophisticated modeling rig I've ever seen. Onstage, he had a rack with a laptop sitting on top that was running L6 Amp Farm. In the rack the Amp Farm was fed into a $2000 Avalon 737 Tube Mic Pre, tube power amps, out to speaker cabs. He was doing a sophisticated version of what modeling amps COULD be in a compact unit.

In my opinion, the only way to make a modeler sound incredible and have great touch sensitivity is to focus on power amp design. That's where Vox has taken the lead, but not far enough. If I were an engineer for Line 6, I wouldn't spend another dime on preamps and FX. I'd still offer software upgrades, but my sole focus would be on power amps, perfectly suited for use with POD Pro units. The Atomic amps were a great idea for the POD beans, but they need rackmounted modeler power amps now. I think I'd want to make SS MOSFET power amps, that are fed by a complex 12AX7 stage....better than Vox has done. Maybe use 4 12AX7's, like a mini 100W amp, being fed into a 400W SS section.

I thought by now Vox would have an equivalent to the POD Pro, and maybe soon they will?? Both Vox and L6 need to focus their attention on power amp design, and I think modeling will reach a new plateau.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

http://www.randallamplifiers.com/products/amplifiers/mts/index.asp

I have a pretty old Duncan Convertible 60 sitting in my bedroom next to my Bassman.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I agree with JB from Hell and Mincer. It may be topped out for now, but only because they're still recouping from the R&D money they've spent thus far.

As far as I'm concerned, the computer technology is good enough to create great preamp tones and FX. I mean....how much better does it need to be than a POD Pro XT? Where they still fall short is in touch responsive power sections.

I saw Todd Mohr from Big Head Todd and the Monsters a few years ago, and he had the most sophisticated modeling rig I've ever seen. Onstage, he had a rack with a laptop sitting on top that was running L6 Amp Farm. In the rack the Amp Farm was fed into a $2000 Avalon 737 Tube Mic Pre, tube power amps, out to speaker cabs. He was doing a sophisticated version of what modeling amps COULD be in a compact unit.

In my opinion, the only way to make a modeler sound incredible and have great touch sensitivity is to focus on power amp design. That's where Vox has taken the lead, but not far enough. If I were an engineer for Line 6, I wouldn't spend another dime on preamps and FX. I'd still offer software upgrades, but my sole focus would be on power amps, perfectly suited for use with POD Pro units. I think I'd want to make SS MOSFET power amps, that are fed by a complex 12AX7 stage....better than Vox has done. Maybe use 4 12AX7's, like a mini 100W amp, being fed into a 400W SS section.

I thought by now Vox would have an equivalent to the POD Pro, and maybe soon they will?? Both Vox and L6 need to focus they're attention on power amp design, and I think modeling will reach a new plateau.

Still, with that much money, you can afford a high end line of Chieftan amps, which are going to sound more organic.

I dunno, amp modelling never did it for me because I like the response and feeling of actually playing through an amp. Besides, how are they supposed to simulate string-fade-into-feedback?

 

[Young Angus]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well it's rather difficult to play a 5e3 in my dorm room...

EDIT
(not that I actually have a 5e3 now, for a very specific reason)

Well that's exactly what I'm getting at! Build something real like a 5e3...but also build a high quality transparent post-power-section master volume into it like the ones all the top modders do to Marshalls. Things like that would get guitarists drooling everywhere!

 

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

i use a GT-Pro into a SS amp, but again, Im not really going for classic sounds at all...on the other hand, Ive tried to get good classic sounds out of a Peavey Valve King, but the SS Bandit does a much better job.

I am happy I have a lot of choices though. It really depends on what kind of guitarist you are.

 

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well that's exactly what I'm getting at! Build something real like a 5e3...but also build a high quality transparent post-power-section master volume into it like the ones all the top modders do to Marshalls. Things like that would get guitarists drooling everywhere!

But I think I would take a modeller for the volumes I'm speaking about over the modded 5e3.

 

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I have a pretty old Duncan Convertible 60 sitting in my bedroom next to my Bassman.

You may have me there, but I must ask...

Unless tube amps start sounding miserable some day, why would anyone try to innovate on their design? Do you honestly believe it's possible for the basic design to be altered to sound THAT much better?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and ask why does any company need to do anything new??? I'm sure we could all name an amp that we would buy if we had the money and it would be pretty damn satisfying on a lot of levels...it would just be expensive that's all. Most of the stuff we all dig heaps is old anyway, yet amp companies are just trying to come up with new crap to hype more people into spending more money on their products.

I don't think anyone here would actually care about "new" technology all that much anyway deep down...I mean what do you want your amp to do that would be "new" technology? ...

Maybe I'm being fascetious, but to get every tone that I use in a typical 4 hour gig, I'd need to bring 9 amps and a crap load of pedals if it weren't for modelling. Could I get by without nailing all the tones in my head? Probably so, but why compromise on anything if I don't have to?

 

[Aden]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

na, it's not going away. It's too good and too cheep to go away, that's for sure. Direct home recording has gotten really good, and will only get better. I doubt it will replace tube amps, but modeling gear will become increasingly more common on stage.

As for if it has toped out or if it's not going to progress any further. I also say no It's software, and new ideas with software spring up all the time, and as our society becomes increasingly computer dependent, more people familiar with software will be able to come up with ideas. Modeling real historic amps is a slow process. Most of the models that are around now are of single channels of amps, or certain sounds, not everything that can come out of them. As companies like roland and line 6 increasingly and more completely "copy" amps there will simply build-up of model libraries. As for new ways to implement them, and new gadgets for modeling, or non-tube guitar technology who knows what will come next, but you can bet there will be some.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

After thinking about it for a minute, I thought of another brilliant idea for Line 6.
So far, they've been creating upgrade packs like Metalshop, Classic, and FX.
What they should do is create a software upgrade or a XT 2. What that would be is a cabinet modeling output section upgrade that allows you to choose which tube power amp you intend to use, and specifically voices it for that particular tube power amp. For instance, the upgrade would give you options for varying levels of touch sensitivity and EQ for Mesa 20/20, 295, 100/100, Marshall Dual Mono Block, VHT, MOSValve, Carvin 1000 SS, PA systems etc. This upgrade would be similar to cab modeling, but would be specifically for dialing in the POD to a variety of other companies amps.
Just an idea.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You may have me there, but I must ask...

Unless tube amps start sounding miserable some day, why would anyone try to innovate on their design? Do you honestly believe it's possible for the basic design to be altered to sound THAT much better?

You've got to admit, there's a lot of tube amps out there that sound like ass. Heck, even my Bassman sounds horrible at or below 2, and it's pretty darn loud at that point.

What would be cool is if someone made a tube amp that sounded good at all levels.

The master volume came out in the '70's right? Can't anyone figure out something better?

 

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You've got to admit, there's a lot of tube amps out there that sound like ass. Heck, even my Bassman sounds horrible at or below 2, and it's pretty darn loud at that point.

What would be cool is if someone made a tube amp that sounded good at all levels.

The master volume came out in the '70's right? Can't anyone figure out something better?

Better question would be, why buy a 50+watt tube amp if you don't want volume?

I don't think most companies design around the idea that their raging 100watt halfstacks will spend 90% of their life in someone's bedroom below 2.

That's why you can get a pod with a headphone jack or run a digitech pedal into a computer like I do...

And you can use attenuators, hell doesn't THD build them into some of their amps? Sad waste of tubes, but hey if you never intend on cranking up, oh well.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Still, with that much money, you can afford a high end line of Chieftan amps, which are going to sound more organic.

I dunno, amp modelling never did it for me because I like the response and feeling of actually playing through an amp. Besides, how are they supposed to simulate string-fade-into-feedback?

I can bet you that the high end modelling rig will be way more consistent as far as sound quality than the Chieftains.

Also, about the "string-fade-into-feedback" comment, how much time have you really spent tweaking and playing a modeller?

I ask because I've not had any problem using any playing technique with my modeling rig that I've used with my normal amps.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Better question would be, why buy a 50+watt tube amp if you don't want volume?

I don't think most companies design around the idea that their raging 100watt halfstacks will spend 90% of their life in someone's bedroom below 2.

That's why you can get a pod with a headphone jack or run a digitech pedal into a computer like I do...

And you can use attenuators, hell doesn't THD build them into some of their amps? Sad waste of tubes, but hey if you never intend on cranking up, oh well.

Ever play an outdoor festival for 3,000 people one weekend and a gig at a 100 person club the next? I have. 50 watts is barely enough for the first and way, way to much for the second gig.


Attenuators change tone, modelers are consistent.

 

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Consistent at what? Ehhh probably shouldn't say what I'm thinking.

Ever heard of PA though? Seriously? Get a 30watt combo and PA it for the 3000 person gig and you can run it straight up in the club.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I can bet you that the high end modelling rig will be way more consistent as far as sound quality than the Chieftains.

Also, about the "string-fade-into-feedback" comment, how much time have you really spent tweaking and playing a modeller?

I ask because I've not had any problem using any playing technique with my modeling rig that I've used with my normal amps.

Actually, in my experience, an amp is more consistent. Sure, maybe you need to change tubes every once in a while, but honestly it's part of the upkeep of a tube amp. I don't have to tweak and play with an amp: set it up, put knobs where they go, and viola! Same with my ME-50 ironically. I don't have time for modelers. To me, an amp is more consistent, period. Granted, if mine dies, oh well: Line Out into PA with my effects pedal, but it's 100% consistent because it simulates, not emulates, an amp, so I sound like me, not like I'm trying to be something else.

Besides, regardless of sound, with a tube amp if it dies, either fix the tube (usual problem) or go buy/rent another for the gig. Tube amps that are made point-to-point inside are easy to fix: buy a soldering kit. The tube amp is also going to sound much better (yes, my ears are that good). The tone of a Fender Twin Reverb or Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 combo is going to consistently be louder, phatter, and more organic than any simulation. Sure, 90% of your fans might not be able to tell, but me, I can tell, so I don't use emulators.

Bottom line, it's a preference thing, and for what I do, tube amps are better. In fact, if my effects unit dies, I can cover myself straight into a Peavey Delta Blues, or even just say "screw it" and go right into my TR for a "refreshing change". My tone would SO rule if I had to do that. If your emulator dies, you're SOL without an amp.

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The GT-8 is leaps and bounds better in terms of features and sound quality than its predecessor. Trust me, I've been on Roland modeling since the VF-1 (rack version of the GT-3).

So far, I have not even seen the point in upgrading from the GT-6. All I saw was more features I didn't need. Even the guy featured on the Roland website who was part of the GT-8 giveaway is still using GT-5s for his rig.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

as far as the GT-8/Pro upgrade goes, it is worth it for the dual amps- you can pan them, or instantly change with picking dynamics...the PC editor with the Pro is really great too.