Has modelling "topped out"?

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Consistent at what? Ehhh probably shouldn't say what I'm thinking.

Ever heard of PA though? Seriously? Get a 30watt combo and PA it for the 3000 person gig and you can run it straight up in the club.

I run everything through a PA all the time.

Ever play a 30 watter OUTDOORS? You won't have a clean channel.

30 watts is cool in a small club, that is, if you're not relying on power amp distortion to get your tones. If that's te case, why play a tube amp at all?

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world, I'd be all tube all the time. "To hell with everybody's ear drums! Roadie! Set up another 6 AC-30's!"

Sadly, I'm not rich enough to afford all the tones in my head nor famous enough to piss off all the bar owners across the world.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Another thing I just thought of as to why some people don't like cover bands AND amp modelling:

When you hear, say, some band play a Nirvana cover like Teen Spirit, you've heard the original before, so your mind starts comparing it to the original recording. There's always going to be something they didn't do exactly like the recording (i.e. they're not Kirt Cobain, they don't own his guitar, his amp, his pedal, etc), so your mind isn't going to like it as much as the original.

That's the way tube amp emulation is to my mind and ears. It's not the original, so I don't like it. Sure, some day computers will be able to deceive us, but for now, I prefer the organic real thing.

 

[Aden]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Actually, in my experience, an amp is more consistent. Sure, maybe you need to change tubes every once in a while, but honestly it's part of the upkeep of a tube amp. I don't have to tweak and play with an amp: set it up, put knobs where they go, and viola! Same with my ME-50 ironically. I don't have time for modelers. To me, an amp is more consistent, period. Granted, if mine dies, oh well: Line Out into PA with my effects pedal, but it's 100% consistent because it simulates, not emulates, an amp, so I sound like me, not like I'm trying to be something else.

That doesn't sound like a lack of consistency by modelers, a modeler will sound like how you set it unless it's not plugged in. It sounds to me like you just don't have the patients to tweak modelers to get a sound you want. That's totally cool, to each their own. If you don't want to mess with a modeler and turning amp nobs is more rewarding thats your thing; and if you think the sound of an amp surpasses all modelers thats cool too. But It doesn't have anything to do with consistency. A modeler will either be plugged in and working with the setting you saved to it, or it'll be broken and you need to buy a new one. Same with a solid state amp for the most part.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I run everything through a PA all the time.

Ever play a 30 watter OUTDOORS? You won't have a clean channel.

30 watts is cool in a small club, that is, if you're not relying on power amp distortion to get your tones. If that's te case, why play a tube amp at all?

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world, I'd be all tube all the time. "To hell with everybody's ear drums! Roadie! Set up another 6 AC-30's!"

Sadly, I'm not rich enough to afford all the tones in my head nor famous enough to piss off all the bar owners across the world.

I've played 100W indoors and had cleans: i.e. my Twin Reverb. But it's overkill in a small club, true. But I'd still prefer, in that scenario, the Peavey Delta Blues because it has distortion, tremolo, and reverb: all I'd need, practically. Also, I'm lucky my Twin Reverb has channel volumes and master volume separate of each other: I can max out the channel and turn down the master for some very sexy overdrive.

I'm not saying emulation is a piece of @#$ and I'll never use it. Every situation is different. I just don't like it. I don't think of this thread as a "yes/no emulation sucks", just that it's a preference thing, and I would rather lug around my heavy Twin Reverb than use emulation. With age and health, however, my opinion might change

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Most emulations I have heard on POD or any BOSS, sound thinner/flatter recorded direct to recording.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

if we take the idea of replicating classic tones out of the equasion, modeling is suddenly a better option than a tube amp though. If you don't want to sound like AC DC, Zep, Queen, SRV, etc...you have to get away from the gear they used.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Actually, in my experience, an amp is more consistent. Sure, maybe you need to change tubes every once in a while, but honestly it's part of the upkeep of a tube amp. I don't have to tweak and play with an amp: set it up, put knobs where they go, and viola! Same with my ME-50 ironically. I don't have time for modelers. To me, an amp is more consistent, period. Granted, if mine dies, oh well: Line Out into PA with my effects pedal, but it's 100% consistent because it simulates, not emulates, an amp, so I sound like me, not like I'm trying to be something else....

...Bottom line, it's a preference thing, and for what I do, tube amps are better. In fact, if my effects unit dies, I can cover myself straight into a Peavey Delta Blues, or even just say "screw it" and go right into my TR for a "refreshing change". My tone would SO rule if I had to do that. If your emulator dies, you're SOL without an amp.

[Sarcasm mode on] Of course! We all know how unreliable computers are! :smack: [Sarcasm off]

For the price of your Twin , Peavey, and ME 50, I can get two GT-8's.

Also, I meant consitency in tone across most situations. Reliability and consistency are two very diferent things.

Take your self proclaimed great ears and listen to your Twin when you have a chance. Play it on 2 and then on 10. See what I mean?

Next, take that same set of ears, pick up any new CD you care to listen to, and pick out all the stuff recorded on emulators.

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Benjy can you explain why you think the sound quality is better on the GT-8 than the GT-6?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Benjy can you explain why you think the sound quality is better on the GT-8 than the GT-6?

The clean amp models seem to have more headroom, the Plexi models aren't as compressed and spikey, and the Vox/ Matchless models are chimier and have that cool bounce on the low end that el84 based amps have. All of this was missing from the -6 IMHO. That, and the models re

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

[Sarcasm mode on] Of course! We all know how unreliable computers are! :smack: [Sarcasm off]

For the price of your Twin , Peavey, and ME 50, I can get two GT-8's.

Also, I meant consitency in tone across most situations. Reliability and consistency are two very diferent things.

Take your self proclaimed great ears and listen to your Twin when you have a chance. Play it on 2 and then on 10. See what I mean?

Next, take that same set of ears, pick up any new CD you care to listen to, and pick out all the stuff recorded on emulators.

Well if it's Windows, and you ever go on the internet, yes it is. Now I could, if I took the time, make my own using Slackware Linux and Alsa+Jack, but I don't have the time, but it would definitely be more reliable. But if you use this laptop for anything but emulating, i.e. go on the internet, you're asking for (over time) file corruption. You could cut your own restore disc, or even burn an Agnuta CD (Linux)....

For the price, however, yes, I agree. A Twin Reverb is $1000 for the reissue, alone. However, barring theft and acts of God, the amp will be around much longer. Mine was made in '72. But this really is an apples versus oranges debate, and honestly I still think it's preference. Still, to be honest, my rig is $300 (Twin Reverb) plus $300 (ME-50) plus $300 (guitar) plus $120 (Hot Rodded combo), and if anything dies, either it's easy to fix (amps and guitar) or cheap to replace (ME-50). Yeah, I know, I definitely got handed my rig by God, so I can't talk about cheap To be fair, that would be like $1,720.

We can't talk "pros" here because we're all not rich. So for going cheap, yes, emulators might be the ticket, but you get what you pay for, in my opinion. Even then, laptop $1000 (for a decent one capable of the processing required, much less clean sound card required), software $60, guitar $300, pickups $120, but then you must go into PA or pay for your own floor amp (a $500 Roland Keyboard Amp would work, I've done this before). Still, that's already $1,480 without amp, $1,980 with.

In terms of "i can't play anymore" syndrone, selling, however, I'd fetch more money because Twin Reverbs hardly depreciate if they're in decent working order. I was offered $650 for it from a friend, and it had one broken speaker voice coil and didn't sound near as good as the reissues. I've seen vintage Twin Reverbs that work and look decent fetch $1,000 or close to it, so I'd win in resale

What new CDs are these? I don't know of any bands recording on simulators.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

What new CDs are these? I don't know of any bands recording on simulators.

Pretty much anything you can pickup at Best Buy that's been recorded in the past 7 years has emulators on it to some degree.

One band that's pretty much all Line 6 is Evanesance (sp?) on their first album.

By what you say, you should be able to pick apart everyone's tones pretty darn easily.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Pretty much anything you can pickup at Best Buy that's been recorded in the past 7 years has emulators on it to some degree.

One band that's pretty much all Line 6 is Evanesance (sp?) on their first album.

By what you say, you should be able to pick apart everyone's tones pretty darn easily.

You can't say that this discounts me just because I didn't know they use Line 6. I could care less: I liked their tone, but I never tried to mimic their tone, in which case I would've done research and discovered what they were using. It's one thing to try to emulate people using emulators: just use what they do. it's another thing to emulate SRV's amp setup, or a tube amp, using an emulator. I said I could tell the difference emulator versus tube amp, not that I could tell if they're using emulators in the first place.

This isn't a debate anyways: you prefer emulators, I prefer amps. So what? When i was deciding amp versus emulators, I compared the ones on the market at the time (2004/2005-ish) to the Fender Twin Reverb and found that they didn't do a good enough job. Effects pedals didn't sound right on the emulators versus the amp. Things have changed since then, true, but I've found what works for me. It's preference: there's no clear winner: it's what works for you.

Granted, in terms of sound, analog (our ears with tube amps) will sound more "real" than emulators (which are running in 16 or 24 bit, which is not going to be as good as our own ears), but it's still based on who is listening. For example, I heard a big difference in the new 24bit codec that Yo Yo Ma's Made In America CD used during recording versus the standard "CD quality": there was more life, more "air", more "realism" to it. However, I've heard cello and classical guitar players live in concert (opera house, no amplification needed) and they sounded much better to me than the CD (although the CD sounded great).

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The clean amp models seem to have more headroom, the Plexi models aren't as compressed and spikey, and the Vox/ Matchless models are chimier and have that cool bounce on the low end that el84 based amps have. All of this was missing from the -6 IMHO. That, and the models re

Thanks for mentioning that, I will definitely have to give one a try.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The tube amp is also going to sound much better (yes, my ears are that good). The tone of a Fender Twin Reverb or Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 combo is going to consistently be louder, phatter, and more organic than any simulation. Sure, 90% of your fans might not be able to tell, but me, I can tell, so I don't use emulators.

In this post you say that you can tell an emulator from a tube amp, now you say you can't. Which is it?

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I hope you can understand what I'm getting at: let's compare human ear to digital equipment. I'll take the Boss ME-50 as an example (since it runs the Boss COSM engine, albiet one, not two).

Quality in digital is measured in bits. 24k bits basically means that there are 24,000 (approximately) values of resistance / power measured along one electrical line (or stereo means two, etc). This is because they get converted to digital. The Boss ME-50 says it's 24 bit, but it's more than likely 24k. Sampling frequency is 44.1kHz, or 44,100 x second it reads resistance or power across the input line (in this case, guitar: one signal) so the sensitivity is basically 24,000 different values it's capable of knowing, and 44,100 x second it is sampling this line.

Our ears have 15,000 to 20,000 hairs in our inner ear that each send their own nerve signal into the brain: so our ears already have a massive advantage because the signal is parallel, not one line. Nerve cells can, at maximum, run a signal at 2 x 10^15 millimeters per second, and assuming the person's head is 27" (hat size) circumference, this would mean diameter = 8.5 inches = 216 millimeters, and assuming the nerves from the ear have to meet the very center of your brain (i.e. assuming they're at their longest possible length), they can send at max 1,851,851,851,851 signals in one second, or 1,851,851,851kHz. However, we should compare the hairs with bit rate (even though it's a bad generalization because it's not one line and 20k possible values, it's 20k possible frequency-tuned lines, which means it includes ALL overtones and ALL noise along those frequencies).

So this is like ultra-surround and with a crazy fast sample rate. The human ear is going to win over everything else (assuming the person exercises this part of their brain by training their ear).

So, in an analog system (i.e. hearing the tube amp), it's going to sound much more "real" than an emulator. You can see that the processing power to fully emulate a tube amp is not going to be easy.

Besides, every time music "upgrades", people remark at how much better it sounds, in terms of digital equipment. CD quality is 16 bit 44.1kHz stereo, and I remember when I heard my first CD, I was like "wow!" It was much better than audio tape at the time. We all should remember that. In fact, you can also tell the difference in CD quality versus FM radio.

I really don't think it's different. When COSM engines go 32bit, 64bit, etc, we'll hear the difference, and yes, as emulators upgrade there will be fewer and fewer people that can tell the difference, but ultimately our ears pwn any emulator.

I'm not trying to disrespect emulators. If I needed 20 amps versus one emulator, or 20 guitars versus a Variax, I'd be going with the cheap route, which would be the emulator or variax. However, I don't, so emulators don't sound better than the real thing to me, hence I use the real thing.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

In this post you say that you can tell an emulator from a tube amp, now you say you can't. Which is it?

No, I said I can tell the difference of the real thing versus an emulation of it. If Evanessence was using a tube amp emulator, I'd be able to tell, but they're not. They're using Line 6 stuff, but for their purpose, so they're not emulating anything except themselves. Besides, they're running distortion, so I was like "ok, who cares, it's distortion, I'm not copying them, but they sound cool".

I can tell the difference between a tube amp and an emulation of one, which is what I was saying in the first place. I could care less if they're using a Line 6 emulator for their distortion. And who says they're simulating amps? Line 6 doesn't ONLY make emulators. Beyond this, Evanesence is pop.

EDIT: Let me be more clear. I tried "clean tube amp" type emulators against various clean tube amps (delta blues, twin reverb, etc) in the guitar store one time. Granted, this was 2004/2005, but the clean tube amp sims didn't sound as good with pedals in front of them, and sure didn't sound as good clean as the tube amps. Almost all "clean tube amp" emulations on Line 6 products (and some others) sounded like krap to me. Remember, my friend in Kunsan (2004-2005) had one, as well as a GT-8, and I also had such a Line 6 amp at church. The Line 6 amp definitely let me down (this was recently) in terms of finding an amp sim that was clean enough to use effects in front of, and I didn't have time to learn how to use its effects: I merely went Line In into the PA from my ME-50 for practice, then brought my Twin Reverb from home for service. They sold the Line 6.

However, remember, I want to eventually get a chance to try a GT PRO, so I'm not saying all emulation sucks.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

pfft whatever! My friends Line 6 comes nowhere close to my Crate V-30. You can't beat tube face it! My bandmate Nick got a Laney Tube amp and it's on a par with the Crate. Changing the tubes makes a dramatic difference in the tone as well. I will always have respect for tubes. I refuse to go SS! I can definatley tell emulated tubes from real tubes, it's too easy.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I have to add that if you pick up any issue of Mix or TapeOp magazine, you can read about the huge amount of recordings that use emulators (many use PODs or computer based ones, like Guitar Rig or Amplitube) on anything from guitars to vocals to drums. Even the great jazz guitarist John McLaughlin tours with his guitar plugged into a laptop these days- and it sounds really really good.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Our ears have 15,000 to 20,000 hairs in our inner ear that each send their own nerve signal into the brain: so our ears already have a massive advantage because the signal is parallel, not one line. Nerve cells can, at maximum, run a signal at 2 x 10^15 millimeters per second, and assuming the person's head is 27" (hat size) circumference, this would mean diameter = 8.5 inches = 216 millimeters, and assuming the nerves from the ear have to meet the very center of your brain (i.e. assuming they're at their longest possible length), they can send at max 1,851,851,851,851 signals in one second, or 1,851,851,851kHz. However, we should compare the hairs with bit rate (even though it's a bad generalization because it's not one line and 20k possible values, it's 20k possible frequency-tuned lines, which means it includes ALL overtones and ALL noise along those frequencies).

That's the most bizarre application of information theory to psychoacoustics I've ever read!

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

pfft whatever! My friends Line 6 comes nowhere close to my Crate V-30. You can't beat tube face it! My bandmate Nick got a Laney Tube amp and it's on a par with the Crate. Changing the tubes makes a dramatic difference in the tone as well. I will always have respect for tubes. I refuse to go SS! I can definatley tell emulated tubes from real tubes, it's too easy.

For players that actually use their tools for work it isn't about a competittion, it's about using the right tool to get the job done.

All things considered I keep on hearing about bands that are using Pods in the studio to get some great sounds. Two artists I know of that I have great respect for are Lenny Kravitz and The Wallflowers. One of the guys from the Wallflowers said in an interview that they'd use the Pod for doing scratch tracks and would often find that they were perfectly happy with the tones they were getting.

Both tube and modelers have their place. Considering all that modelers have available to a player it's absurd to discount them unless you have the money to actually afford all of the amps which they emulate.

I will admit...I keep seeing guys using Line 6 amps playing heavier music and making some god-awful sounds. I don't think it's as much the amp as it is the player and their propensity to turn everything up. Line 6's amp models were done in a way to give the player "more". They made them and added the "wish list" that often times serious players always wanted, whether it be something like the ability to cut Mids on a Tweed Champ or a Master Volume on a Plexi. And when the heavy metal kids do it and it's bad, man, it's terrible. But then I look at guys like Meshuggah and they get a GREAT sound.

However....I was surprised to see some Blues players using them. They needed serious versatility and the amps gave it to them in Spades. They were conscious not to go overboard and I see them doing really well with them.

No...it's not a tube amp. But then again for the amount of money were willing to invest on amps in our lifespans most of us will never own all the amps that are available in a modeler and would be nice to have in situations.