Has modelling "topped out"?

[Jeffrec]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

This may sound like blasphemy, but I believe that eventually modeling will be good enough to replace tube.

I agree. The whole field of modelling is still in it's early stages. They'll eventually nail the "tube" thing to a tee.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I don't know the theory behind that, but I do know that your ears can perceive a lack of warmth in a signal. Digital signal is also thinner sounding than Analog. This is true in the recording world as well....I think the actual wave lengths are smaller, from the way an audio recording professional described it to me.

It's not necessarily the digital that's bad. It's what's getting thrown away at current sampling levels, and what it's not doing. Call me insane, but I can hear an improvement when switching to 24/96. But...

The 'problem' with higher sampling rates is not digital artifacts(what it's doing), but lack of analog gear and tape compression(what it's not doing). Some of the thinness you hear is the lack of analog fatness. And that, my friend, is hard to duplicate. The current set of Pro Tools tape/tube/SS warmth emulation plugins are still lacking that elusive 'something'.

But the geeks are working on it....


EDIT: If the wavelengths were smaller, everything would go up in pitch. Low frequencies suffer at lower bit rates, and high frequencies suffer at lower sampling rates. You will notice a lack of depth in the lows, and a lack of transparency in the highs.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Digital is good for quite a few things....but modellers....nah, convinient and useful yes, but it has very little to do with the real thing in my not so humble opinion.
I think more analouge stuff will keep showing up instead.
Anyways all this has so many parameters...just like normal amps and so on
But sound like an old Hiwatt or Marshall at userlevels..no.

 

[Imp]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

i think modelling technology will only progress as fast as processor technology - you can get the best resolution you can get in a feasible unit, but until your processor 'raw materials' improve the best you can do is minor tweaks.

i guess when we see a common 4 GHz CPU in a family computer, we'll see higher resolution modelling... dual core isn't suited to minimal-cost one-purpose stuff like modelling IMO!

tom

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

It will still lack that "fat" factor anything with huge trannies has, or the push of air that speakers have!
They can stuff 10000000megagigaultraHZ and it would matter little!
It is like making artificial wood...it is just not right!

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

That part is completely whacked. I'm guessing you misunderstood him/her. Wavelengths aren't in the equation.

It's not necessarily the digital that's bad. It's what's getting thrown away at current sampling levels, and what it's not doing. Call me insane, but I can hear an improvement when switching to 24/96. But...

The 'problem' with higher sampling rates is not digital artifacts(what it's doing), but lack of analog gear and tape compression(what it's not doing). Some of the thinness you hear is the lack of analog fatness. And that, my friend, is hard to duplicate. The current set of Pro Tools tape/tube/SS warmth emulation plugins are still lacking that elusive 'something'.

But the geeks are working on it....


EDIT: If the wavelengths were smaller, everything would go up in pitch. Low frequencies suffer at lower bit rates, and high frequencies suffer at lower sampling rates. You will notice a lack of depth in the lows, and a lack of transparency in the highs.

From what I understand, Analog sound has a fuller sound recorded, which can somehow be shown in bigger or perhaps fuller waves visually?

 

[ErikH]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

It will still lack that "fat" factor anything with huge trannies has, or the push of air that speakers have!
They can stuff 10000000megagigaultraHZ and it would matter little!
It is like making artificial wood...it is just not right!

I totally understand what you're saying here and agree, but it's only going to matter when the guitar is the only thing being played. When the entire band is going at 120 decibels, nobody is going to be able to tell the difference, even the person playing.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

It will still lack that "fat" factor anything with huge trannies has, or the push of air that speakers have!
They can stuff 10000000megagigaultraHZ and it would matter little!
It is like making artificial wood...it is just not right!

Everything can be accurately simulated given enough resources - guitar amps are no exception.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Let me just start by saying I am a tube snob, and a pursit when it comes to equipment.

I agree that modeling has not topped out, and is in it's early development. The key to it's continued popularity will be it's cost....as long as it is kept affordable in general to players. Floor processors under $400, combo amps around $699 and head's/cab's in the $1,000 range will keep these things moving of the shelfs like crazy. Most people want more than one sound, and many options.

Modeling has come leaps and bounds in just the past 3 years. I purchased my Boss GT-6 3 years ago, and it has been eclipsed by many products. I happen to think my -6 does a great job, and there are a bunch of very, very useable amp models and patches. If I were more of a tweaker, and a better player, it would be even better.

If you doubt how good it can sound...Jolly uses digital modeling on all of his songs, and his amp is 4-5 years old. All of his clips sound amazing to me. Also, every complete song I have in "my soundlips" down in my sig was recorded with my -6. I think the tone is great.

Technology will get to the point where it will be very, very difficult to tell the difference between tube and modeling.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well those factors are a major part of the sound....even at loud those modellers lacked that tacticle feel one has with a good normal amp, even live that is important, imagine getting the most unconvincing feedback
Or getting strange artifacts in the sound that are not analouge..hehe
I know that some can produce very good and fat tones, even live, but I have grown up with tubeamps, I know that feel, I use it in my playing, and I use a simulator here at home...and while it has a pleasent sound, it is not great by any means.
Dunno it has never convinced my ears, but it would be nice if they could make something that sound and feels as good as old style amps, maybe they are simply just too perfect....0111001010010 is what it is, not 011056852300010

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Everything can be accurately simulated given enough resources - guitar amps are no exception.

Yeah simulated is the key word...but never 100% reproduce!

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Yeah simulated is the key word...but never 100% reproduce!

The problem is that as things progress, and they will because it's obvious that there is a market for it, they they will come so close that the difference will be negligible.

As of now it's negligible to a good percentage of people.

Soon it will get to a point where it will be negligible to most folks.

Then it will get to a point where the differences will be so minor that it won't really matter.

The tube amp is not evolving....for most folks they're playing through amps that are the height of technological innovations from 1965 or so.

But modelers ARE evolving, they are getting better, easier to use, more accurate and more convenient. The stigma is wearing off and it's becoming more acceptable.

Inherently the situation will come when people will only own tube amps because they have a soft spot for them and not becuase they're inherently better.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well....a whole lot of players do not want it to get "better"!
Amps are simple raw beings, that other thing is rather complex and a calculating
being...fundemental differences!
Dunno I do not want one for my own sound, I like old and tempramental stuff better, they can not replicate the uneveness that is in tubeamps, some days you just switch it off because the sound is gone, other days it is pure bliss...
part of the charm, and playing is not about perfect stuff...it is about those moments where it just clicks, don't think they can program that in
I am not against it, I just do not think that it ever will be anything like the real thing.
Height of tech in 65....well that was not a tubeamp for sure
It is a lazy time we live in, and modellers are a sure sign of that, instant this and instant that, well never mind that, it is just how it is!
Dunno about negible, some of us do use our ears alot, and I grew up with turntables, really great amps for Hi-Fi that has little equality with anything today, what I see is that tube amps are evolving again, some very clever designs are being made these days, even the meagre stompbox is having a good time now...I can see that here where I am
There is something about basic tech that is hard to replicate, simply because it is not complex at any means, while modellers are complex by nature.
What I think is that tubeamps, old style tech is becoming a thing for the fewer people, it is already evident now, it is a thing for those who wants something special, you know exclusivity, that is why the boutique market is so big now!
Can't compete with that, with something as common as a programme!

 

[StrangeSound]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I don't want to miss the fat sound I get out of my rig on higher volumes. @ home I realize there's no difference, heck the POD sounds better, although the clean tone on the pod is ****. If I'm in the mood for a nice clean sound -> Squire Strat -> Engl Screamer -> T.C. G-major and activate the compressor.

For each situation you have to choose the gear and of course your style. There many guitarists who have a splendid tone with a modeller!

It's a tie for me.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

IMO this is like comparing real breasts to silicon implants. The implants might look nicer but the real thing is always going to have that tender squishiness about it you can't "simulate". What's next, digital computer breasts? Size and firmness simulation and everything.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I've read through most of the posts...I gotta tell ya all that I'm a tube amp purest from the 70's....But: These days I use my Vox Valvetronix VTH120 head almost all the time and I get great tone! If I didn't,I wouldn't use the amp now for almost 2 years! Basically I don't care if the amp is tube,ss,modeling,or runs on hamsters,as long as the tone is great!

I'm very happy with the Vox product and never even thought sbout parting with it...I'm sure the technology will continue to get better. I own both tube amps and this Vox modeling amp..

I've yet to have someone ask me if there's tubes inside of my Vox amp upon having that same person(s) telling me they like my tone or my playmanship..There are 2 12AX7s in the amp,but you know what I Mean.

Opinions are like a$$holes and everyone has one! LOL

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

IMO this is like comparing real breasts to silicon implants. The implants might look nicer but the real thing is always going to have that tender squishiness about it you can't "simulate". What's next, digital computer breasts? Size and firmness simulation and everything.

Are you sure you're only 16? :6:

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Are you sure you're only 16? :6:

Like a 16 y/o really knows the difference right buddy? :fingersx: :laugh2: :smack: :laugh2:

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Like a 16 y/o really knows the difference right buddy? :fingersx: :laugh2: :smack: :laugh2:

The sad reality is . . . he probably gets more than we do. :yell:

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The problem is that as things progress, and they will because it's obvious that there is a market for it, they they will come so close that the difference will be negligible.

As of now it's negligible to a good percentage of people.

Soon it will get to a point where it will be negligible to most folks.

Then it will get to a point where the differences will be so minor that it won't really matter.

The tube amp is not evolving....for most folks they're playing through amps that are the height of technological innovations from 1965 or so.

But modelers ARE evolving, they are getting better, easier to use, more accurate and more convenient. The stigma is wearing off and it's becoming more acceptable.

Inherently the situation will come when people will only own tube amps because they have a soft spot for them and not becuase they're inherently better.

I think this might be something that might be able to be discerned better live. For instance, I know when I record my RD-700 piano w/the newest piano card, someone will not be able to tell the difference. The actual piano sound IS the real thing just recorded..but if you are in person you might be able to tell that it's an already recorded digital sample as opposed to the ambient grand piano actually there. That actual "presence" could be shown missing.