Has modelling "topped out"?

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The sad reality is . . . he probably gets more than we do. :yell:

Oh how true that is Artie! :laugh2:

I'm like...."Hey honey,it's been like a week!" :laugh2:

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I think this might be something that might be able to be discerned better live. For instance, I know when I record my RD-700 piano w/the newest piano card, someone will not be able to tell the difference. The actual piano sound IS the real thing just recorded..but if you are in person you might be able to tell that it's an already recorded digital sample as opposed to the ambient grand piano actually there. That actual "presence" could be shown missing.

I dial in some really great tone on my Valvetronix amp...Maybe I have a knack for dialing the amp in? The cool thing also,is that I also coax great sustain out of the amp...I just plug it into a matching Vox 2x12 cab with V30 speakers..Basically if the tone is working,does it really matter if it's a modeling amp,tubes,ss.etc..?

If it sounds good,it is good!

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I dial in some really great tone on my Valvetronix amp...Maybe I have a knack for dialing the amp in? The cool thing also,is that I also coax great sustain out of the amp...I just plug it into a matching Vox 2x12 cab with V30 speakers..Basically if the tone is working,does it really matter if it's a modeling amp,tubes,ss.etc..?

You're hitting on something thats important here. To get good tone out of a modeler is at least two parts: the quality of the software, and how much effort you put into "tweaking" the parameters. Software gives you the ability to "design" the amp in a virtual world. Take two minutes, and it sounds like crap. Take two weeks, and you get closer.

You can't evaluate a modeler in a store. You have to live with it.

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I dial in some really great tone on my Valvetronix amp...Maybe I have a knack for dialing the amp in? The cool thing also,is that I also coax great sustain out of the amp...I just plug it into a matching Vox 2x12 cab with V30 speakers..Basically if the tone is working,does it really matter if it's a modeling amp,tubes,ss.etc..?

If it sounds good,it is good!

The tone modeling works, but not for everybody. I don't think that is the dispute. Like someone else said, Vox seems to be ahead since they have that actual tube technology. All modelers I have heard sound thinner than the real thing. When recorded, it's harder to tell, since everything is recorded down. Are we saying a $400 gadget can actually replace a nice boutique amp? maybe for some, but I'm not convinced. I have recorded my Boss GT-6 direct to track, and it sounded fine, but still thinner. You are more or less saying, "but can you get useable tone?" and I think that you obviously can, lots of artists use them.

Sort of like comparing noiseless Strat pups to real singles. They do not replace the real thing as in being indentical. They might replace the real thing for the people that buy them, but they do not sound the same. I don't even like the sound of most (including the ones offered by Duncan), but that's another story.

As for PODs, I don't like the modeling at all. Like I said, when I owned one I heard this plastic layer over the sound...some other reviewers heard something similar to what I was describing. I don't hear that problem w/the Boss GT units, though.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You're hitting on something thats important here. To get good tone out of a modeler is at least two parts: the quality of the software, and how much effort you put into "tweaking" the parameters. Software gives you the ability to "design" the amp in a virtual world. Take two minutes, and it sounds like crap. Take two weeks, and you get closer.

You can't evaluate a modeler in a store. You have to live with it.

Artie....We've both also left out the player though! Some of us have good ears and know how to get great tone also...Not mentioning any names but....:laugh2:

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I know what you mean. I've been having a lot of fun lately playing without a pick. I'm getting some great tone, and control, just using my thumb.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The tone modeling works, but not for everybody. I don't think that is the dispute. Like someone else said, Vox seems to be ahead since they have that actual tube technology. All modelers I have heard sound thinner than the real thing. When recorded, it's harder to tell, since everything is recorded down. Are we saying a $400 gadget can actually replace a nice boutique amp? maybe for some, but I'm not convinced. I have recorded my Boss GT-6 direct to track, and it sounded fine, but still thinner. You are more or less saying, "but can you get useable tone?" and I think that you obviously can, lots of artists use them.

Sort of like comparing noiseless Strat pups to real singles. They do not replace the real thing as in being indentical. They might replace the real thing for the people that buy them, but they do not sound the same. I don't even like the sound of most (including the ones offered by Duncan), but that's another story.

As for PODs, I don't like the modeling at all. Like I said, when I owned one I heard this plastic layer over the sound...some other reviewers heard something similar to what I was describing. I don't hear that problem w/the Boss GT units, though.

My amp never sounds thin....I like the versatility I get when playing live with this amp basically...We cover alot of different music and the effects are pretty decent also...A great amp for $600...I agree with your post,and as I said,I still use my vintage Fender and Marshall amps...I'm fortunate to be able to be on both sides of the fence and I'm still a tube amp guy first!

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I know what you mean. I've been having a lot of fun lately playing without a pick. I'm getting some great tone, and control, just using my thumb.

Awesome Artie...For me,it has to be all about fun.First and foremost!

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You can't evaluate a modeler in a store. You have to live with it.

This is such a true statement. I can't imagine how many more of these units by different manufacturers would actually sell more if they had better factory presets to start. Yeah, I realize that not everybody has "one preset" they like, hence why we need to edit, but most seem to agree that the factory setup patches are pretty lousy.

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

My amp never sounds thin....I like the versatility I get when playing live with this amp basically...We cover alot of different music and the effects are pretty decent also...A great amp for $600...I agree with your post,and as I said,I still use my vintage Fender and Marshall amps...I'm fortunate to be able to be on both sides of the fence and I'm still a tube amp guy first!

You are also talking about a different technology...aren't you mentioning an actual amp w/modeling? That is still WAY different than recording say a POD or BOSS directly. I will not comment on those, I have never used one!

I think you are bringing up a different point about having a great sound w/modelers. This opposed to saying that Amp A is equal or identical to Modeler A. Do you seem what I'm saying? Like saying it's characteristics completely match or are completely replaceable since they are identical in sound.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

This is such a true statement. I can't imagine how many more of these units by different manufacturers would actually sell more if they had better factory presets to start. Yeah, I realize that not everybody has "one preset" they like, hence why we need to edit, but most seem to agree that the factory setup patches are pretty lousy.

No lie.....It takes me only a few minutes to be able to tell if an amp is worth doing any further wanking through...Some stuff really does it,but some stuff doesn't(For my styles).

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You are also talking about a different technology...aren't you mentioning an actual amp w/modeling? That is still WAY different than recording say a POD or BOSS directly. I will not comment on those, I have never used one!

I think you are bringing up a different point about having a great sound w/modelers. This opposed to saying that Amp A is equal or identical to Modeler A. Do you seem what I'm saying? Like saying it's characteristics completely match or are completely replaceable since they are identical in sound.

LOL....Maybe I hijacked the thread,but I'm just babbling on about how much I Like my Vox modeling amp..:laugh2:

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

LOL....Maybe I hijacked the thread,but I'm just babbling on about how much I Like my Vox modeling amp..:laugh2:

Hey I know I'm glad you did...do you have any recorded clips? :fingersx: :laugh2:


It seems like those who have owned all of the modelers (or the majority), say they like the VOX Tonelab stuff the best. I would assume, that is some of the same stuff your VOX amp is based on.

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You are also talking about a different technology...aren't you mentioning an actual amp w/modeling? That is still WAY different than recording say a POD or BOSS directly.

LOL....Maybe I hijacked the thread,but I'm just babbling on about how much I Like my Vox modeling amp..:laugh2:

You aren't babbling. I did this both ways. I got the J-Station and loved it. (Through a mixing desk and studio monitors.) Then I got the Hughes & Kettner and loved it more. I didn't use the "J" for months. There was something organic about the H & K, even though it was solid state. Then I got the idea to run the "J" through the H & K. Even better.

The J-Station acted as the perfect preamp/front-end to a great power amp/speaker combo. Best of both worlds. Its why a friend of mine returned a VOX AD50VT for an H & K and "J" . . . as I mentioned in another thread.

 

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

LOL....Maybe I hijacked the thread,but I'm just babbling on about how much I Like my Vox modeling amp..:laugh2:

You are STILL talking about modeling technology, I just wanted to make the distinction w/the units and the amps. This thread was not titled a specific type of modeler specifically, and I know I'm glad you shared your insight on your VOX amp w/the modeler built in!

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

JeffB mentioned "vibe and feel" a while back. He's onto something. This reminds me of the arguments about those who think a pickup is just wire and a magnet and those who know that how you put that magnet and wire together makes a world of difference.

It's possible that I could be fooled into thinking a recording of a modeler is really a tube amp. But what's missing when you're sitting, hands idle, listening to a recording is the FEEL. As with different pickups, the sound coming out of different amps (or different amp settings) will affect how you hit the strings with fingers or pick.

To the point, let a player play a modeler amp and a tube amp and tweak both to his heart's content. Though the sound may end up being very similar, even close enough to fool a listener, one of the amps will have a much better feel to the player in that it responds more to his touch, while the other may feel pretty compressed or unresponsive, forcing the player to alter his playing technique to such an extent that it's pure labor and no pleasure at all to play through it.

That is the big difference that may not show up listening live and is almost guaranteed to be entirely buried in a recording. On the other hand, we will never hear the great notes and lines, texture and dynamics, etc., that might have resulted from a player getting a great feel from his amp. This difference makes discussions over whether you could hear a difference as a listener only academic.

 

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

To be clear, you can definitely hear a "digital" recording. There's many factors that affect that. I just meant that I've seen discussions here that talk about the "small steps" that a speaker puts out in a digital recording. The power amp and the speaker only ever see a true analog signal.

I think I understand this. A speaker can't move in the chunks that digital approximates with, it has to move smoothly meaning that the air will be pushed. There are no instantaneous pressure changes like the digital approximations would demand, it's not possible.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Hey I know I'm glad you did...do you have any recorded clips? :fingersx: :laugh2:


It seems like those who have owned all of the modelers (or the majority), say they like the VOX Tonelab stuff the best. I would assume, that is some of the same stuff your VOX amp is based on.

I'm not setup to do clips...Basically I never do clips! I Play in a band.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

To the point, let a player play a modeler amp and a tube amp and tweak both to his heart's content. Though the sound may end up being very similar, even close enough to fool a listener, one of the amps will have a much better feel to the player in that it responds more to his touch, while the other may feel pretty compressed or unresponsive, forcing the player to alter his playing technique to such an extent that it's pure labor and no pleasure at all to play through it.

I just get a good tone dialed up and then play with it....Still doesn't matter to me these days whether it's tubes,no tubes,ss,modeling,etc..The technology is really good,close,and scary with some of the closeness in tone to the real thing...I Like this Vox amp because it does have some feel to it,plus I can dial up several usable tones..Tones that sound really good and with alot of versatility...We do blues,classic rock,and even some heavier alternative stuff and for me the modeling type amp works for us..If we were just doing only blues all night,I could be very happy with a BF Pro Reverb,Super Reverb,or even a 59 Bassman amp though..All good points on your part though.

 

[Artie]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

It's possible that I could be fooled into thinking a recording of a modeler is really a tube amp.

You're touching on something thats so important here . . . I don't really care if my modeler sounds "authentic". I care if it sounds "good". A subtle, yet distinctive difference.

Then again . . . I have to say - I've never wailed through a true tube amp. If I do . . . I may have to come back here and delete a whole bunch of posts.