Help getting a Joe Barden sound

[zionstrat]

After a couple of months of looking for a good price on Joe Barden S pups, I've given up and wondering if I can come close with duncan's and would appreciate your help!

I've got Bardens on my zion strat (swamp ash maple fboard) and this is the sound I want to emulate with my parker nightfly- The reason I love the bardens is that they are very clear strat like and quacky in 2 and 4, but I also like the dual blades-

I use a coil roll off mod to get the in between sounds and my bardens reject with just a little bit of coil2 but retain the strat sound- As I add more coil the sound goes all the way towards what sounds like a mini-humbucker, so I get a firebird or explrer like sound. As a result the zion does a great job of handling everything from blues to rock, very very well.

My parker is HSS and considering parker construction, I'm guessing it as about the same as the zion for sustain, and maybe slightly less bright? (hard to tell with stock pups and parker 'woods')-

I've never tried to match my own set of pups, but here's my first shot at getting the barden sound on my parker- Does this make sense or would you go a differnt direction?

1. Neck- Duckbucker- Low ohms but enough power for neck? Advertised for quack sound and I live off of quack- But maybe need a cool rail here based on power of next 2 pups?

2. Middle- Cool rail- Much higer ohms and appears good match for bridge humb, but will it significantly overpower the Duckbucker?

3. Bridge Humbucker- First priority would be a good match rolled off with the middle pup for 2 position strat sound- But considerign that I have a full sized humb for a change in this position, figured I would go for more of a EVH brown sound at full humb- So here are 2 choices

JB- Looks like it adds some lows to ballance out the treble and it certainly should have the power, but will it overpower the cool rail and duckbucker?

Maybe 59 modle would be a better match from a ower power perspective?

This is new territory for me, so any and all ideas appreciated!
Thanks!

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

I have a full set of Barden Strat Deluxes in my Strat; I also own Hot Rails ... they are completely different beasts; no real comparison imo. Sorry!

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Thanks TO! At least you confimed that the HotRails aren't the right direction, so maybe something in my analysis was correct

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

And just for something completely different, I've gone as far as considering replacing the bridge hum with 2 of what ever twinblades I put in the middle- This might alieviate my matching problem to get me a strat quack in positionion 2 - I would wire the 2 bridge pups in series to get more HB power, but this is more of a mod than I really want to consider-

 

[zionstrat]

How to get a darker sound from a parker?

How to get a darker sound from a parker?

Ok, maybe there aren't a lot of Barden users on this site, (considering it's the Duncan site So let's take another approcah-

I'm looking for the clear powerful strat sound as my first sound and I've already explained why I like twin blades- But the more I think about it, my parker is probalby naturally brighter than my strat as I beleive the Parker is maple and has their super tough fingerboard-

With that said, I'm thinking that the Duckbuster, cool rails, JB set up that I described above might be too bright- So forget Bardens for a minute and help me compare and contrast potential HSS combinations using dual rails for the S positions-

Much appreciated!

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

I would go with JB/Hot Rails/Hot Rails, man ... I have that setup in my Wayne Rock Legend (for now ) and it rocks mightily!

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

TO- Glad to know that's a good combo! What kind of sounds do you get and what kind of wood body/fingerboard is the Wayne?

My clean sound is knoplfersque (strat period), semi dirty is more Gilmorish, and the humbucker is somewhere between Tom Scholtz and Allan Holdsworth (not like I can play like any of them

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

TO- Glad to know that's a good combo! What kind of sounds do you get and what kind of wood body/fingerboard is the Wayne?

My clean sound is knoplfersque (strat period), semi dirty is more Gilmorish, and the humbucker is somewhere between Tom Scholtz and Allan Holdsworth (not like I can play like any of them

The Wayne is an alder body, so it's more beefy, and not much, if any, "snap" or "twang" ... for that, I use my maple-bodied Lynch guitars. The fingerbaord is rosewood.

You can hear a clip of the guitar in action here http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/twilightodysseymusic.htm
Check out the songs NEAR DARK for the JB and DOOBIE BROTHERS JAM for the maple body/Screamin' Demon combo.

I'm a straight up old school metal player; imagine an LA metal guy playing in a NWOBHM band you have the basic idea. The clips will help you out, too.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

To address your tonal questions: The JB will definitely give you the sounds you're looking for, and you can always split the humbucker, as well ...

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

TO thanks for the examples! Think when it comes down to it therory is therory and circle picking is circle picking, so as you demonstrate, better players with open minds can thrive practically anywhere- One of my favorite local players is a monster on drums gtr and bass in practically any style becuase he played on cruise ships, practically anythign was requested, and he had as much practice time as he wanted- Good clips!

I see what you are saying about the JB and the doobie sound is much like my zions current overdriven sound- MAybe the lil-screaming deamon would be a bit warmer on my parker and clean up when I back off it? Think I'll jump over to HArmoney central and see of there are any reviews-

Thanks again- Good recordings- You using a gate or keeping it clean with right hand mutes?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

My clean sound is knoplfersque (strat period), semi dirty is more Gilmorish, and the humbucker is somewhere between Tom Scholtz and Allan Holdsworth (not like I can play like any of them

Do you mind 60 cylce hum?

If not, going by your description, I would go with a pair of SSL-1's for the neck and mid, or the Antiquity Surfers, if you can swing the cost. Those pickups will be all over the Knopfler and early Gilmour sound.

As far as the bridge humbucker is concerned, the JB in a strat can be a beautiful thing. Also, if I recall correctly, Duncan's Holdsworth model humbucker is very similar to a JB with 12 polepiece screws.

The JB also splits well. :burnout:

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Thanks again- Good recordings- You using a gate or keeping it clean with right hand mutes?

Thanx, man, I appreciate it!
No, I don't use any electronic gizmo's aside from an OD and boost pedal: no noise gating, harmonizers, or anything ... just my head + hands!

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Benjy26- thanks for the JB/holdsworth comment! Didn't know they were close- I think that's going to be my humb at this point-
On hum, this gtr will be in lots of bad RF conditions, so will have to humbuck or cancel all the way- But thanks for the input and if I put another studio strat together someday

TO- That's what I thought and I wish I had the right hand for it- If I read the site correctly you use VG88 and the GP100 is still my main preamp playing out and I really lean on the ngate on brown and above-

Thanks folks! Leaning towrds JB, coolrail, little screaming deamon at this point-

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

zionstrat, I used the VG88 for all the solos on my album, and for most of my soundclips; I live in an apt in NYC, and volume is always an issue.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Benjy26- thanks for the JB/holdsworth comment! Didn't know they were close- I think that's going to be my humb at this point-
On hum, this gtr will be in lots of bad RF conditions, so will have to humbuck or cancel all the way- But thanks for the input and if I put another studio strat together someday

TO- That's what I thought and I wish I had the right hand for it- If I read the site correctly you use VG88 and the GP100 is still my main preamp playing out and I really lean on the ngate on brown and above-

Thanks folks! Leaning towrds JB, coolrail, little screaming deamon at this point-

I would take a listen at some Classic Stacks for neck and mid if noise is an issue. The CR and Lil Demon work great for distorted riffing, but you will give up some, if not all, of the "Knopfleresque" sounds.

 

[tone4days]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

if you think you want a duckbucker for the neck, then get a vintage rails for the neck instead ... essentially the same pickup tonally with different configuration ... my guess is that you bend strings (reading from your influences) ... you'll get a DRAMATICALLY better response with a rail pickup over the duckbucker in the neck and middle positions ... those teeny tiny pole pieces cant handle the bending very well at all ...

as for what you want, have you considered some of the real bill lawrence pickups from bill and becky lawrence in sunny california? ... i think they might interest you

also, have you considered the idea of making the two guitars sound different so as not to overlap the tonal pallet of the two? ... one nice thing about two guitars is that we get to try different sounds from each ... unless, of course, you need a 'hot spare' where you can count on them benig very sonically similar

if you are worried about taming a 'too bright' guitar, i bet a 59 in the bridge would work well , and combine (when split) with the middle very nicely ...

hope this helps
good luck
t4d

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Thanks benjy 24- I do need to keep knophleresq as my primary sound but also prefer blades- If I was going pure strat noiseless I think I would go kineman based on buddies strats-

Tone 4 days- Yeah, I forgot, bending is another reason I love my barden rails! Oh, well back to the real world, I haven't used Blawrence in years and will have to check out their site- I built a 335 copy in 70s and I used one of his full sized rails for one of the most 'pure' jazz sounds i have ever heard-

On the Duncan side, was looking at vintage rails but was worried that it has even less power than the duck and I was afraid it might be too bright as well-But mayebe I could but the vintage in the neck, with cool rail mid to better match a JB on the bridge- Or in the middle wiht a cool in the neck knowing that the vintage would contribute less in 2 and 4 than the bridge and the neck?

Also completely agree with your 'clone' issue, but what I forgot to tell you is why I want to upgrade the parker- I've got the Zion that I talk about, and a PRS ce24 that I want to leave at home, but keep a little of both of their sounds- I'm nuts about the feel and the piezo sound of the Parker and it's got a great big cavity and pickgaurd, so it should be fun to mod- I would much rather direct lightning to $400 guitar, espcially considerig I will not be able to replace those Bardens!

Good info all! Thanks!

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Rats- Thought I had made my mind up but think I just learned that vintage (and duckbusters) are only 2 conductor? Why would anyone make a dual blade that you can't tap? Am I missing something?

I'm guessing it would be well beyond me to try to tap myself

Cool rails is 4 conductor, but think I'm going to think this over a little more-

thx for input!

 

[zionstrat]

Finshed mod- Was Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Finshed mod- Was Help getting a Joe Barden sound

Folks-
Thanks again for a lot of really good input- The nitefly mod went extremely well and here's a summary for anyone thinking in the same direction:

1. Spin a split is even better than on my zion/bardens! In single coil it's rather vintage, it warms up just a little when you add 2nd rails and really get's thick with all rails on- Center positions are even more radical than on the zion (guessing because there is more variety in these 3 pups)- Sounds a little bit like a vari-tone with differnt frequenices empnazised-

2. JB worked extremely well in bridge position- But it's surprisingly clear and bright- Almost tele like- It is spliting in position 2 and it's incredibly strat like, and I thihk I will get good crunch out of it by rolling off some treble.

3. Crusier is good in the mid positon, but a bit 'colorless' on it's own- In other words, positions 2 and 4 quack nicely, but 3's not really good or bad- It's pretty clean and may turn out to be a good rythem position when I get the rest of the band in the room. I wired it to ground out the north coil with the split so that it remains hum canecling.

4. Cool rail is excelent in neck position- Not only a great 4 position sound, but probalby the clearest neck I've ever had (more defined than the barden on my strat), but also crunches up very nicely-

5. Stewart mac cocentric pot is excellent! A bit tight on wirign space so had to plan out leads carefully, but extremely smooth! Went with a .044 with the tone in the center and the split roll off on the outside-

So on all levels the mission seems acomplished- The zion and it's bardens can safely stay at home, and the parker gives me very simiar sounds and the pizo to boot-

I'm extremely satisified with a total investment under $600 -

Also, if you have a strat wired guitar and dual rails, you really should consider the spin a split option- Have never done it with dual full sized hums but planning one now-

Cheers and thanks again!

 

[tone4days]

Re: Help getting a Joe Barden sound

glad it all worked out so well for you .. any chance you could post some sound clips to show her off?

cheers
t4d