Help me gain some perspective here...

[B2D]

Take a listen to this tone test i did with my POD 2.0 and Garageband.

This is a Basswood-bodied guitar with a JB.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8856461

EDIT: Better example here... same tone patch, different guitar and pickups.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8700069

Now, knowing that this is a POD, if you had to replicate or approximate this tone on a live gig with a real amp, what would you use?










ah screw it ...here's my issue.

This track was from some tracks of tone tests I did and scratch tracks that my drummer could practice to.

I really dig the basic, core tone I get on this track right here. My Bogner always sounds great live, but on tape it sounds NOTHING like that sample I posted, and I don't like that fact. It doesn't sound bad by any means, it's just that the tone I get from a $150 POD in Garageband is closer to what i want than what the Bogner gets miked up in the studio.

I've spent a lot of time dialing the Bogner in and experimenting with speakers and the like, and the closest I can get isn't that close to what i want, comparitively. I've heard other rigs that get really close to that... maybe I just need to switch amps?

Agh... help me gain some perspective here, guys. This is driving me bonkers. I know that what gets used live isn't always what gets used in the studio, but the gap here is too far for me to be comfortable with it.

:banghead:

 

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Uhhh, no offense but that tone isn't even that good.
It's really dark, and muffled and wouldn't even come across well in a full mix.
I'd say ditch the POD 2.0 entirely and use some good software amp sims and impulses and start from scratch.
The name of the game should be clarity.
The tone you have here is anything but that.

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Uhhh, no offense but that tone isn't even that good.
It's really dark, and muffled and wouldn't even come across well in a full mix.
I'd say ditch the POD 2.0 entirely and use some good software amp sims and impulses and start from scratch.
The name of the game should be clarity.
The tone you have here is anything but that.

It sounds a bit brighter here on my computer... converting it to MP3 and loading it on Soundclick cost me some high end, but there's nothing I can do about that. My laptop isn't that great.

It's a little on the dark side of what I normally use, but I like it.

This is another, better example of that same patch, recorded in a different program on a different computer. Different guitar but the core woods are the same, and using Blackouts. It's one I used in the Riff-Off.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8700069


...on another note, I only use the POD for practicing and demo stuff at home, I wouldn't use that in the studio on the EP I'm recording. I'm using Guitar Rig simulator in the studio for my clean sounds, but using the Bogner for all the dirty tones and leads. But the core tone I'm going for is there...

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Mic placement has a lot to do with it, including the mic angle and distance. Sadly, the best mics that really capture the true sound cost out the ass.

What mic are you using? MD421? SM57? Both?

Might look into a Sennheiser e604. It's a drum mic, but that means it's voiced for better low-end reception.
I've miked a 2x12 with one before and got a better recording than the SM57. It actually sounded like my cabinet being pumped through the P.A., rather than a miked cab.

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Mic placement has a lot to do with it, including the mic angle and distance. Sadly, the best mics that really capture the true sound cost out the ass.

What mic are you using? MD421? SM57? Both?

Might look into a Sennheiser e604. It's a drum mic, but that means it's voiced for better low-end reception.
I've miked a 2x12 with one before and got a better recording than the SM57. It actually sounded like my cabinet being pumped through the P.A., rather than a miked cab.

The 4x12 I'm using in the studio has Emi Man-O-Wars and Governors in it... we were using an MD421 on the Governor and an SM57 on the MOW.

 

[DankStar]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

just my 10 cents:

- recently I started mic'ing again a bit. I'm really moving away from the cone these days and doing more of a slight angle. Lotsa bad stuff right in the middle (where I used to aim, dead on).

- if you like the pod tone, I'd try make that your main one, and add some mic'ed gits for ambience as helper guitars. to me the pod ones sound a tad distant or something, but the helpers might take care of that issue in a mix.

- are you able to record the preamp of the soldano and send it through a cab in the POD for recording? that might capture the essence of your head but bypass some mic'ing issues. would be better if you tried several micing techniques and did a shoot out of sorts though. you'd have to be very diligent to write down the distance, height, & angle of the mic so you could replicate the placement again down the road.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

I like Dankstar's idea to mix the pod with the real amp as an option. The pod tone is super tight with not a lot of room sound and compressed. You can try and use an SM57 tight to the speaker, play with the position and compress the recorded track hard.

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

just my 10 cents:

- recently I started mic'ing again a bit. I'm really moving away from the cone these days and doing more of a slight angle. Lotsa bad stuff right in the middle (where I used to aim, dead on).

- if you like the pod tone, I'd try make that your main one, and add some mic'ed gits for ambience as helper guitars. to me the pod ones sound a tad distant or something, but the helpers might take care of that issue in a mix.

- are you able to record the preamp of the soldano and send it through a cab in the POD for recording? that might capture the essence of your head but bypass some mic'ing issues. would be better if you tried several micing techniques and did a shoot out of sorts though. you'd have to be very diligent to write down the distance, height, & angle of the mic so you could replicate the placement again down the road.

point by point...

I think that may have been my one mistake in the preproduction... I didn't spend as much time as I really should have nailing my recorded tone on tape. Next time I'll definitely experiment more with mic angles and placement.

Will definitely try using the POD more in the mix as the main tone next time... i actually did want to try mixing the POD with the amps but we didn't really budget in enough time for that.

Before we record the next batch of tunes (probably much later this year) I want to go in a day or two ahead of time and just spend a whole session nailing my studio tones and carefully documenting everything.

I didn't think of using the Bogner's direct out through the POD's cab emulations. That might be interesting. I've also wondered about renting a Palmer speaker simulator or something like that to play with.

I like Dankstar's idea to mix the pod with the real amp as an option. The pod tone is super tight with not a lot of room sound and compressed. You can try and use an SM57 tight to the speaker, play with the position and compress the recorded track hard.

Interesting point of fact, neither of those samples were recorded using any compression at all. I occasionally compress clean tones but never distortion. Nevertheless, that'll be one option to try.


I wanna get a recording of my amp that sounds as close to real life as possible. Right now that's not what's happening. Not BAD tones on tape, just not what I've tuned and dialed my rig to sound like.

I guess I didn't notice it at the time partially because I was stoked at being in a real studio PLUS things sound differently in the car or on headphones as opposed to a studio control room with nice monitors.

Granted, my POD also sounds better in real life and on studio monitors than it does on playback over an MP3 on the internet, but the core tone is still there and I like it. Not the case with my real amp.

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

I appreciate everyone's help so far, by the way.

 

[wixedmords]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

B, I didn't think the first tone was all that bad, sure it was missing some highs, but not horrible.

The second clip is really quite good I thought. That one sounds like a keeper to me.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Interesting point of fact, neither of those samples were recorded using any compression at all. I occasionally compress clean tones but never distortion. Nevertheless, that'll be one option to try.

I think it's just the nature of the pod distortion to sound compressed. In any event compressing your mic'd guitar sounds will give you a more in your face sound like the pod.

Just another thing, mixing is a BIG part of a good guitar sound in the studio. Maybe the mixing is letting you down? I think it's best to get a good powerful signal to tape e.g. set all your tone controls on the amp to 6 or so - you can always subtract but you can't add what's not there.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

I would not worry about switching amps. bogner is a little overcompressed sounding for my tastes these days, but it should do just fine for recordings. its easy to record with pod cause you dont have to be loud to record. You have a pod so Id just go with that for recordings and make it easy on yourself. Its amazing how much tone matters for the final product. Leave the physics and engineering to the recording engineer. realize that pod is for home recordings and is never going to sound like a real amp. axefx will sound closer but the dynamics are still off; a guitarist hits strings harder when he gets feelings, and the amp reacts organically, getting louder and growlier. axefx is never going to sound like a tube amp in that respect.

digital pod tones are good though for extreme metal because they are so compressed sounding. but to my ears I prefer tube tone, the more the tubes have a chance to get warm and swell and react to my playing and get harmonic feedback when I position my guitar close to the amp, the more the playing is dynamic. like a drummer will hit harder and change small details like where he hits when he feels a part of the song that he likes.

a very compressed sounding amp or digital amp wont ever mimic these dynamics. but for a very mechanical sterile sound, the pod and overcompressed sounding amp will do well just like dimebag liked solid state.

I say for classic rock, record home demos with pod. you can plug a pedal to your pod to help. but for real recordings Id use an amp that is very tube driven and dynamic like a vert imput jcm800...

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

B, I didn't think the first tone was all that bad, sure it was missing some highs, but not horrible.

The second clip is really quite good I thought. That one sounds like a keeper to me.

Yeah that second one isn't all that bad actually. That's the Axis with the Blackouts.

I think it's just the nature of the pod distortion to sound compressed. In any event compressing your mic'd guitar sounds will give you a more in your face sound like the pod.

Just another thing, mixing is a BIG part of a good guitar sound in the studio. Maybe the mixing is letting you down? I think it's best to get a good powerful signal to tape e.g. set all your tone controls on the amp to 6 or so - you can always subtract but you can't add what's not there.

I'll have to sit down with the engineer and play with the mic blend in post... that might get me closer. I generally don't like to EQ too much in post but if it's gotta be done then so be it, especially to keep the guitar from clashing with another instrument.

I would not worry about switching amps. bogner is a little overcompressed sounding for my tastes these days, but it should do just fine for recordings. its easy to record with pod cause you dont have to be loud to record. You have a pod so Id just go with that for recordings and make it easy on yourself. Its amazing how much tone matters for the final product. Leave the physics and engineering to the recording engineer. realize that pod is for home recordings and is never going to sound like a real amp. axefx will sound closer but the dynamics are still off; a guitarist hits strings harder when he gets feelings, and the amp reacts organically, getting louder and growlier. axefx is never going to sound like a tube amp in that respect.

digital pod tones are good though for extreme metal because they are so compressed sounding. but to my ears I prefer tube tone, the more the tubes have a chance to get warm and swell and react to my playing and get harmonic feedback when I position my guitar close to the amp, the more the playing is dynamic. like a drummer will hit harder and change small details like where he hits when he feels a part of the song that he likes.

a very compressed sounding amp or digital amp wont ever mimic these dynamics. but for a very mechanical sterile sound, the pod and overcompressed sounding amp will do well just like dimebag liked solid state.

I say for classic rock, record home demos with pod. you can plug a pedal to your pod to help. but for real recordings Id use an amp that is very tube driven and dynamic like a vert input jcm800...

Funny thing is, that POD model that's in the clips is "Brit Hi Gain" which is based off a Marshall JCM800 with a Master Volume, according to the POD manual. They didn't way what model it was but they DID say the amp modeled used a tube rather than a diode for it's distortion.

Maybe I should go looking for a good 2204 or 2205 and take it for a walk.

I agree with the rest of your sentiment on the whole though... the POD tone is fun to play with and sounds OK but it's very one-dimensional overall. It's kind of like a hamburger... quick and easy and good for a quick fix but you could get tired of it.

I've spent some time with an Axe FX and for my style the sounds really worked well for me. I wouldn't be opposed to doing a whole record with one. Modeling like that still has yet to really get good for low-gain or mid-gain overdriven vintage tones, however. The Axe FX is REALLY good for cleans, effects, and hi gain though.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Funny thing is, that POD model that's in the clips is "Brit Hi Gain" which is based off a Marshall JCM800 with a Master Volume, according to the POD manual. They didn't way what model it was but they DID say the amp modeled used a tube rather than a diode for it's distortion.

Maybe I should go looking for a good 2204 or 2205 and take it for a walk.

I agree with the rest of your sentiment on the whole though... the POD tone is fun to play with and sounds OK but it's very one-dimensional overall. It's kind of like a hamburger... quick and easy and good for a quick fix but you could get tired of it.

I've spent some time with an Axe FX and for my style the sounds really worked well for me. I wouldn't be opposed to doing a whole record with one. Modeling like that still has yet to really get good for low-gain or mid-gain overdriven vintage tones, however. The Axe FX is REALLY good for cleans, effects, and hi gain though.

yeppers! you hit it on the money there, I agree. Low and medium gain sounds are really dynamic and have alot going on, that would have to be a big azz computer to model that. Also I vote for the 2204! Marshall jcm800s arent just an amp, they are a cult of tone :banana:

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

So I'm way late on this one, but I'm just getting an extremely juicy vibe from the tone - I'd honestly say a JSX would be perfect for it, or maybe an Recto on the 'vintage' setting. Hell, a 5150 could probably get a similar vibe, too! I'm surprised the Bogner can't quite cop it, though, tbh.

 

[Diocletian]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Uhhh, no offense but that tone isn't even that good.
It's really dark, and muffled and wouldn't even come across well in a full mix.
I'd say ditch the POD 2.0 entirely and use some good software amp sims and impulses and start from scratch.
The name of the game should be clarity.
The tone you have here is anything but that.

HE likes it. :28: Why tell him to try and get a tone YOU like, when he has a tone HE likes already?

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

On your Bogner XTC, assign the 2nd presence knob to the red channel, and set it high for highend crunchiness. Since the Bogner EQ is like a mixing board, meaning 12:00 is neutral, set the treble and bass higher than usual, and suck out some mids to taste.

The Bogner Ecstasy has a signature sound, provided the knobs are close to 12:00 all around, so by getting the EQ and presence dialed extreme, you should be able to mold the sound. That's the nice thing about the XTC. It's like an all tube modeling amp that can only store to 3 channels plus boosts on all.

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

So I'm way late on this one, but I'm just getting an extremely juicy vibe from the tone - I'd honestly say a JSX would be perfect for it, or maybe an Recto on the 'vintage' setting. Hell, a 5150 could probably get a similar vibe, too! I'm surprised the Bogner can't quite cop it, though, tbh.

I've never had the pleasure of being able to try a JSX that's been properly maintained... the ones in GC are usually abused and there's a tube blown and the thing is buzzing like crazy. I do like the potential I hear in them though. I'll have to spend more time with one next time I find one.

I've often thought of getting a Dual Rec and fitting it with EL34's as a backup amp.

Never could get on with 5150s.

The thing is, the Bogner does get well into that type of tone in real life, but I think the thing I'm hearing is that it wasn't being miked up the way it should've been in order to capture that sound.

On your Bogner XTC, assign the 2nd presence knob to the red channel, and set it high for highend crunchiness. Since the Bogner EQ is like a mixing board, meaning 12:00 is neutral, set the treble and bass higher than usual, and suck out some mids to taste.

The Bogner Ecstasy has a signature sound, provided the knobs are close to 12:00 all around, so by getting the EQ and presence dialed extreme, you should be able to mold the sound. That's the nice thing about the XTC. It's like an all tube modeling amp that can only store to 3 channels plus boosts on all.

That's actually what I do now!! The mids are about 4 or 3, and the Bass is up at about 6 and the treble at 6 or 7, and the 2nd presence is set on about 7 and assigned to the red channel.

After some thought, I think I'm just hearing the result of my amp miked up in a less-than-optimal way. I'll need to try some other miking techniques next time and spend more time on it.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Did you try the mids up around 6 or 7 yet?

 

[B2D]

Re: Help me gain some perspective here...

Did you try the mids up around 6 or 7 yet?

Putting them past 6 makes the mids too dominant for my taste when doing rhythm playing, which is what I'm doing 09% of the time anyways. I usually do put it up around 7 for soloing in the studio, though.