fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Is there any way to correct that? Can I use anything else as ground?
Is there any way to correct that? Can I use anything else as ground?
Help needed with custom wiring
- Thread starter fabian98h23
- Start date
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Nope, ground is ground and bridge must be grounded.
I'm going to give you a logical construct that worked for me when I was getting started... Note that the analogy is only useful for what I'm sharing and will backfire if u use it for anything more advanced...
In this case, I think of circuitry as water flowing down hill in pipes. The pipes may split or combine but the water must go downhill to ground which is the end of the path.
So if 'water' comes if from positive tip side of jack, it is always trying to move to ground, which exits the guitar at the negative side of the jack that connects to the barrel of the patch cord.
So with this analogy, grounded stuff like the bridge, need to connect to negative to pour bad water=noise out of the guitar.
And water most flow through pickups from source to ground because they are really the engine that powers this circuit and other devices like pots and switches might be up stream or down stream.
Ok, now that we've got my funky analogy in place, the starting wire to a pickup has to be connected to the incoming flow from the tip of the jack and the output must go on to the ground side of the circuit so there is flow through the pup.
This is why the input to the pup cannot be connected to the bridge... the 'water' would simply bypass the pup and flow through the bridge and out the ground side if the circuit.
In your case, you can flip input and output wires if you want out of phase but input wire can't connect to ground.
Hope this helps and please, please recognize that the plumbing analogy does not work with more advanced electronics, but may help in this case.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Nope, ground is ground and bridge must be grounded.
I'm going to give you a logical construct that worked for me when I was getting started... Note that the analogy is only useful for what I'm sharing and will backfire if u use it for anything more advanced...
In this case, I think of circuitry as water flowing down hill in pipes. The pipes may split or combine but the water must go downhill to ground which is the end of the path.
So if 'water' comes if from positive tip side of jack, it is always trying to move to ground, which exits the guitar at the negative side of the jack that connects to the barrel of the patch cord.
So with this analogy, grounded stuff like the bridge, need to connect to negative to pour bad water=noise out of the guitar.
And water most flow through pickups from source to ground because they are really the engine that powers this circuit and other devices like pots and switches might be up stream or down stream.
Ok, now that we've got my funky analogy in place, the starting wire to a pickup has to be connected to the incoming flow from the tip of the jack and the output must go on to the ground side of the circuit so there is flow through the pup.
This is why the input to the pup cannot be connected to the bridge... the 'water' would simply bypass the pup and flow through the bridge and out the ground side if the circuit.
In your case, you can flip input and output wires if you want out of phase but input wire can't connect to ground.
Hope this helps and please, please recognize that the plumbing analogy does not work with more advanced electronics, but may help in this case.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Ok, I think I understand that. Is it possible to isolate the pickup from the bridge? Can I add another piece of metal inside the guitar which is used as ground instead of the bridge?
Thanks for the explanation.
Ok, I think I understand that. Is it possible to isolate the pickup from the bridge? Can I add another piece of metal inside the guitar which is used as ground instead of the bridge?
Thanks for the explanation.
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Take the bridge out of the equation- It needs to be grounded, so just make sure that it is connected to the ground path (jack barrel) as described above.
Using the water analogy, all you need is a design where flow starts at jack, goes thru pup and then heads for ground at the other side of the jack.
Perhaps it would be a good time for you to make a diagram to get used to the flow- you can do it on a piece of paper and upload a photo- start with big blocks (jack, pups, bridge) and draw the flow. Once that is done, add switches and pots.
Compare your diagram to standard diagrams and you will see opportunitites and mistakes.
Take the bridge out of the equation- It needs to be grounded, so just make sure that it is connected to the ground path (jack barrel) as described above.
Using the water analogy, all you need is a design where flow starts at jack, goes thru pup and then heads for ground at the other side of the jack.
Perhaps it would be a good time for you to make a diagram to get used to the flow- you can do it on a piece of paper and upload a photo- start with big blocks (jack, pups, bridge) and draw the flow. Once that is done, add switches and pots.
Compare your diagram to standard diagrams and you will see opportunitites and mistakes.
fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
I have decided to leave the guitar as it is right now. To make clear what I have achieved I am going to explain a bit how it was before, how it is now and how I want it to be in the future.
When I started the project the idea was to have a single coil in the bridge with just a volume pot. However I decided to put also a humbucker in the neck with its own volume pot. Since then the guitar has been through different modifications.
-In summer 2016 I built the guitar. The electronics that it had at the beginning were the same pickups that it has now (a humbucker in the neck and a single coil in the bridge) and each pickup had a 500k volume pot and an on/off switch. The problems that this wiring had were that the pots were wired wrong (volume went up when I turned the pot in counterclockwise direction), change pickups could not be done fast (I had to switch one off and the other on) and the pots were dependent.
-In summer 2017 I refinished the guitar and changed the electronics. Right now it has a humbucker with a push pull volume pot with coil split function and a single coil with another push pull pot which acts as a killswitch when pulled. The selector is a 3 way les paul selector. The pots are still dependant.
I am going to leave the guitar like that for a time, untill I have more free time. The next modifications will be using the bridge pot to change the phase of the humbucker when it is splitted, making the pots independent and adding a treble bleed circuit.
Thank you very much for your help, all your advices have been very useful. If you have any suggestions, ideas or know something that I sould consider for the following modifications please tell me.
Here I attatch a photo of the guitar with the old configuration and one with the new one
I have decided to leave the guitar as it is right now. To make clear what I have achieved I am going to explain a bit how it was before, how it is now and how I want it to be in the future.
When I started the project the idea was to have a single coil in the bridge with just a volume pot. However I decided to put also a humbucker in the neck with its own volume pot. Since then the guitar has been through different modifications.
-In summer 2016 I built the guitar. The electronics that it had at the beginning were the same pickups that it has now (a humbucker in the neck and a single coil in the bridge) and each pickup had a 500k volume pot and an on/off switch. The problems that this wiring had were that the pots were wired wrong (volume went up when I turned the pot in counterclockwise direction), change pickups could not be done fast (I had to switch one off and the other on) and the pots were dependent.
-In summer 2017 I refinished the guitar and changed the electronics. Right now it has a humbucker with a push pull volume pot with coil split function and a single coil with another push pull pot which acts as a killswitch when pulled. The selector is a 3 way les paul selector. The pots are still dependant.
I am going to leave the guitar like that for a time, untill I have more free time. The next modifications will be using the bridge pot to change the phase of the humbucker when it is splitted, making the pots independent and adding a treble bleed circuit.
Thank you very much for your help, all your advices have been very useful. If you have any suggestions, ideas or know something that I sould consider for the following modifications please tell me.
Here I attatch a photo of the guitar with the old configuration and one with the new one
Attachments
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Or 50s wiring in addition to independent vol wiring.
Or 50s wiring in addition to independent vol wiring.
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
That's all interesting, but you've got it backwards. The ground is the start of the flow through the pups then the controls then out through the "output" jack to the amp. Nevertheless, the circuit has to be complete (from ground to the amp) to work. If the "input" wire to the pup is connected to ground and the output of the pup to the jack, you will get sound. If you reverse that (output of the pup connected to ground and input of pup connected to the jack) you will still have a completed circuit and you will have sound. Only the phase will be reversed, which only has an affect on the sound if this pup is in the circuit with another pup.
That's all interesting, but you've got it backwards. The ground is the start of the flow through the pups then the controls then out through the "output" jack to the amp. Nevertheless, the circuit has to be complete (from ground to the amp) to work. If the "input" wire to the pup is connected to ground and the output of the pup to the jack, you will get sound. If you reverse that (output of the pup connected to ground and input of pup connected to the jack) you will still have a completed circuit and you will have sound. Only the phase will be reversed, which only has an affect on the sound if this pup is in the circuit with another pup.
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
From looking at your photos, I can see what you need to do. Look at your pics. Do you see lots of unshielded wires going helter skelter all over the place? Clean up all the loose wires which could be causing a short. If by lucky coincidence you don't have a short with those wires, then your problem is in the "X" shunt wires of your phase switch. When the switch is up, those shunt wires are bypassed (or not in use) and the pup works. The ground wire of your pup is connected directly to ground and the output wire of the pup is connected to the wire going to the 3-way selector switch. When the p/p switch is down, the signal has to travel through the shunt wires, but this is where the signal stops...you have no sound. Therefore, unsolder those wires, clean up the mess, and solder them again making sure you have good solder joints and no shorts.
From looking at your photos, I can see what you need to do. Look at your pics. Do you see lots of unshielded wires going helter skelter all over the place? Clean up all the loose wires which could be causing a short. If by lucky coincidence you don't have a short with those wires, then your problem is in the "X" shunt wires of your phase switch. When the switch is up, those shunt wires are bypassed (or not in use) and the pup works. The ground wire of your pup is connected directly to ground and the output wire of the pup is connected to the wire going to the 3-way selector switch. When the p/p switch is down, the signal has to travel through the shunt wires, but this is where the signal stops...you have no sound. Therefore, unsolder those wires, clean up the mess, and solder them again making sure you have good solder joints and no shorts.
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
But, as you said, the analogy doesn't mess me up on most mods because it is exactly backwards and I'm aware of the times this doesn't make sense-
Where it gets me in trouble is discussions with advanced circuits and discussions with EE buddies, so appreciate any pointers and I still want to know why the 'electrons aren't falling to the ground'
Yes GtrDoc you are absolutely correct. When I started there were something like 3 books available for gtr wiring and clearly I learned it backwards. I realized I had it backwards 15 or 20 years ago and have learned a lot since- I recently had a thread running asking for the URL that would help intermediates like me move up a step or 2 https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...info-for-intermediates&highlight=intermediate
But, as you said, the analogy doesn't mess me up on most mods because it is exactly backwards and I'm aware of the times this doesn't make sense-
Where it gets me in trouble is discussions with advanced circuits and discussions with EE buddies, so appreciate any pointers and I still want to know why the 'electrons aren't falling to the ground'
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
I still tend to think of it as positive electricity flowing to ground. I may be technically wrong, but my hand-soldered guitars still all work just fine. ;-)
I still tend to think of it as positive electricity flowing to ground. I may be technically wrong, but my hand-soldered guitars still all work just fine. ;-)
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Well, think of it this way. The ground we walk on and every other "ground" is negatively charged. Electrons are also negatively charged. Same charges repel each other, like in magnets...the negative poles of two magnets repel each other (also the two positive poles repel each other). Since the ground is negatively charged, it is trying to repel or push away negatively charged electrons. That repelling of electrons (and attraction to positive charges) is what drives electricity. That is why the beginning wind of a pup is attached to ground, to pick up those electrons which travel through the pup and through the rest of the circuit and out to the amp to create some sound. If it went the other way, the flow would travel to ground and never go to the amp so no sound would be made. The analogy of water is a good one and we even refer to "current" in both scenarios.
Where it gets me in trouble is discussions with advanced circuits and discussions with EE buddies, so appreciate any pointers and I still want to know why the 'electrons aren't falling to the ground'
Well, think of it this way. The ground we walk on and every other "ground" is negatively charged. Electrons are also negatively charged. Same charges repel each other, like in magnets...the negative poles of two magnets repel each other (also the two positive poles repel each other). Since the ground is negatively charged, it is trying to repel or push away negatively charged electrons. That repelling of electrons (and attraction to positive charges) is what drives electricity. That is why the beginning wind of a pup is attached to ground, to pick up those electrons which travel through the pup and through the rest of the circuit and out to the amp to create some sound. If it went the other way, the flow would travel to ground and never go to the amp so no sound would be made. The analogy of water is a good one and we even refer to "current" in both scenarios.
fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
I have checked all the wires and it doesn't look like any of them may be having a short. It doesn't look like it's a problem with the X wires, I wired the pot as if it was a regular pot and it worked fine, and then I tested it again but changing the positions of the black and white wires of the pickup and it stopped working. What you are saying sounds very logical, but for any reason, the black wire of the pickup can't be used as hot. Does this have a logical explanation?
Thank you very much for your replies.
I have checked all the wires and it doesn't look like any of them may be having a short. It doesn't look like it's a problem with the X wires, I wired the pot as if it was a regular pot and it worked fine, and then I tested it again but changing the positions of the black and white wires of the pickup and it stopped working. What you are saying sounds very logical, but for any reason, the black wire of the pickup can't be used as hot. Does this have a logical explanation?
Thank you very much for your replies.
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Well, you certainly can't tell by "looking". You need to hook up a meter to it to determine if there is a short or open contact.
Does it have a logical explanation? Yes and no. If you have the black wire grounded and the white wire as hot and the pup works, then if you reverse the white and black wires (white grounded, black hot) it WILL work. The pup either works or it doesn't work. It doesn't care which direction the current is flowing through it. Therefore your wiring is the problem not the pup. Check it with a meter and/or redo every connection.
Well, you certainly can't tell by "looking". You need to hook up a meter to it to determine if there is a short or open contact.
Does it have a logical explanation? Yes and no. If you have the black wire grounded and the white wire as hot and the pup works, then if you reverse the white and black wires (white grounded, black hot) it WILL work. The pup either works or it doesn't work. It doesn't care which direction the current is flowing through it. Therefore your wiring is the problem not the pup. Check it with a meter and/or redo every connection.
fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Right now I am very busy, and I think I won’t have time to work in the guitar. Whenever I have time I will unsolder everything and check everything with a multimeter. I will update my progress then.
Thank you for your help
Right now I am very busy, and I think I won’t have time to work in the guitar. Whenever I have time I will unsolder everything and check everything with a multimeter. I will update my progress then.
Thank you for your help
beaubrummels
Well-known member
fabian98h23
New member
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
Yeah, that is a good idea :biglaugh::biglaugh:
Yeah, that is a good idea :biglaugh::biglaugh:
Re: Help needed with custom wiring
It can drive you nuts trying to find a problem while everything is all hooked up and soldered. He really should redo all of his wiring anyway, some of it is a mess. So I personally wouldn't waste the time and frustration trying to meter it at this point.
Take it all apart,
Clean up all the excess solder with Solder Wick,
Meter each component separately,
Trim and tin all the wire ends keeping them short (only long enough to solder to the appropriate terminals),
Solder all connections using a sufficiently hot iron to make the solder flow thin (not bulk up into huge messy mounds potentially hiding dry solder joints),
Then plug in and play...everything should be fine if you follow this protocol.
It can drive you nuts trying to find a problem while everything is all hooked up and soldered. He really should redo all of his wiring anyway, some of it is a mess. So I personally wouldn't waste the time and frustration trying to meter it at this point.
Take it all apart,
Clean up all the excess solder with Solder Wick,
Meter each component separately,
Trim and tin all the wire ends keeping them short (only long enough to solder to the appropriate terminals),
Solder all connections using a sufficiently hot iron to make the solder flow thin (not bulk up into huge messy mounds potentially hiding dry solder joints),
Then plug in and play...everything should be fine if you follow this protocol.
