Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Rex.

I'd like to check two more things, this time with the items depicted in the same orientation of the first photo of the control cavity that you posted.

Pic # 1 below simply looks to confirm the connections at each of the four common lugs in the superswitch, but from this new orientation. Sorry if this one seems repetitive but we need to make sure...



Pic #2 asks about the connections on all lugs of the PCB side of the switch (i.e. left side).. It seems from what I can make out from your earlier pic of the control cavity, that a number of lugs have no connection at all compared to the diagram. I apologize if they do and I just cannot make it out clearly fron that photo. Please review and let me know.

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Not a problem at all. Trust me I am as confused as you are.

Pic #1 - Confirmed and continuity tested all common lugs (well can't really continuity test the pup leads, but tested to the mini-switch)

Pic #2 - Confirmed and continuity tested all lugs. The jumper wire I ran across all 8 got a little "high" on some lugs so the solder didn't flow entirely over the hole which is why some appear not to be connected, but there's a good bead on the "front" you just can't see it here. I actually tested continuity from the "outer" 2 --> 4 jumper on the switch side (which I jumpered to the PCB side as previously mentioned) across all 8 lugs on the PCB side, and then to the vol pot lug and it all checked out.

I dunno... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Not a problem at all. Trust me I am as confused as you are.

Pic #1 - Confirmed and continuity tested all common lugs (well can't really continuity test the pup leads, but tested to the mini-switch)

Pic #2 - Confirmed and continuity tested all lugs. The jumper wire I ran across all 8 got a little "high" on some lugs so the solder didn't flow entirely over the hole which is why some appear not to be connected, but there's a good bead on the "front" you just can't see it here. I actually tested continuity from the "outer" 2 --> 4 jumper on the switch side (which I jumpered to the PCB side as previously mentioned) across all 8 lugs on the PCB side, and then to the vol pot lug and it all checked out.

I dunno... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rex,

Thanks for checking and explaining about the location of the solder points on the PCB side switch.

For the issue of why you are getting inner and outer coils only when the Neck pickup is *not* rotated, I am going to have to keep thinking about that one.

For the issue of what you described as those two coil-split positions sounding like they are not hum-canceling: I think it's possible that the noise you hear is EMI /RFI interference, not 60 cycle hum. This could be because the insulation you rigged up on the solid core wire you used might be insufficient to properly shield against RFI present in your home environment, and additionally because that control cavity *appears* to me to have neither shielded paint from the OEM nor any copper tape lining to provide shielding. I would recommend at a minimum, redoing the wiring with standard OEM shielded wire. Adding shielding of some type would be another helpful step. Although it continues to be a debatable matter in the forums, from what i have read, the tape method seems to have more claims of being the "more effective" solution vs the shielded paint method.

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

I went through and checked - again - to make sure which coils are active and noticed something I didn't test before, or expect - but maybe you did.

Everything checks out - Bridge, inners, both, outers, Neck

But when I put the neck into parallel, it's always both coils of the neck active even in positions 2&4. Maybe that makes perfect sense, and thinking about it now I guess I'm not sure what I thought WOULD happen haha but it was just unexpected to me as I tested it right now.

Again, I kinda like those blends more than the "true" split blends but I like having both options regardless.

Either way, I generally agree with you in that I think once a few more tools and supplies show up I'm going to just redo this all over again anyway.

I actually bought copper tape to shield the cavity and had planned to do it, but then I was like - one thing at a time man, you've never done this before. I also wasn't sure if it would make sense to ONLY do the control cavity and not the pickup cavities as well, but I don't want to do those because the copper tape would not look sexy peeking out behind the pickups. Anyway, if it makes sense to just do the control cavity, I may tackle this next time I tear everything down.

My main area where I record/play IS very electronically noisy sadly, and that's part of why I wanted to shield this one up when I saw it didn't have much, the backplate is covered in foil to connect to that strip of foil coming off the output jack, but it's not "fully sealed" at all, there's no graphite paint or whatever covering the rest of the cavity.

I have a few different sets of strings coming in soon as I wanted to try a little lighter gauge and see if that removes some of the "woofiness" I'm still getting out of the neck. A big reason I wanted to swap out the mojotones was that the neck was just all low-end and no clarity, and even the bridge didn't seem very crisp to me. While I'm actually quite happy with the Omega bridge in this set, the Alpha neck still seems to have no real "shimmer" in the highs - though it cleans up a fair bit when it's in parallel and I think that's why it possibly blends better in that mode in 2&4. Anyway, I'm still playing with things like height adjustments, and I think having a slightly lighter gauge on the low strings might pull a little of that low-end off as long as they're not too flappy. I'm also getting pretty bad wolf-tones on my G that were not there prior to the swap, so I need to see if Ican sort that out too. Anyway, this is a long way of saying I'll be tearing this down and setting it up for some time to come so a re-wire and shielding can definitely be in the cards.

Oh one more thing I wanted to ask you Jack - in the original wiring, there was a small cap across 2 lugs (left and center) on the vol pot. I assume that was there to roll off some low-end and I think it kinda did as you turned the volume down. Does that make any sense? And is it something I can look at to knock some low-end off the neck - though I'd like it to be there all the time I guess, not just at like 50% volume. I didn't put the cap back in because I wanted to just hear the Alpha/Omega as-is, but I've been wondering what that was there for.

Thanks!

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

I went through and checked - again - to make sure which coils are active and noticed something I didn't test before, or expect - but maybe you did.

Everything checks out - Bridge, inners, both, outers, Neck

But when I put the neck into parallel, it's always both coils of the neck active even in positions 2&4. Maybe that makes perfect sense, and thinking about it now I guess I'm not sure what I thought WOULD happen haha but it was just unexpected to me as I tested it right now.

Again, I kinda like those blends more than the "true" split blends but I like having both options regardless.

Either way, I generally agree with you in that I think once a few more tools and supplies show up I'm going to just redo this all over again anyway.

I actually bought copper tape to shield the cavity and had planned to do it, but then I was like - one thing at a time man, you've never done this before. I also wasn't sure if it would make sense to ONLY do the control cavity and not the pickup cavities as well, but I don't want to do those because the copper tape would not look sexy peeking out behind the pickups. Anyway, if it makes sense to just do the control cavity, I may tackle this next time I tear everything down.

My main area where I record/play IS very electronically noisy sadly, and that's part of why I wanted to shield this one up when I saw it didn't have much, the backplate is covered in foil to connect to that strip of foil coming off the output jack, but it's not "fully sealed" at all, there's no graphite paint or whatever covering the rest of the cavity.

I have a few different sets of strings coming in soon as I wanted to try a little lighter gauge and see if that removes some of the "woofiness" I'm still getting out of the neck. A big reason I wanted to swap out the mojotones was that the neck was just all low-end and no clarity, and even the bridge didn't seem very crisp to me. While I'm actually quite happy with the Omega bridge in this set, the Alpha neck still seems to have no real "shimmer" in the highs - though it cleans up a fair bit when it's in parallel and I think that's why it possibly blends better in that mode in 2&4. Anyway, I'm still playing with things like height adjustments, and I think having a slightly lighter gauge on the low strings might pull a little of that low-end off as long as they're not too flappy. I'm also getting pretty bad wolf-tones on my G that were not there prior to the swap, so I need to see if Ican sort that out too. Anyway, this is a long way of saying I'll be tearing this down and setting it up for some time to come so a re-wire and shielding can definitely be in the cards.

Oh one more thing I wanted to ask you Jack - in the original wiring, there was a small cap across 2 lugs (left and center) on the vol pot. I assume that was there to roll off some low-end and I think it kinda did as you turned the volume down. Does that make any sense? And is it something I can look at to knock some low-end off the neck - though I'd like it to be there all the time I guess, not just at like 50% volume. I didn't put the cap back in because I wanted to just hear the Alpha/Omega as-is, but I've been wondering what that was there for.

Thanks!

Rex,

Yes, I was aware that when Parallel mode of the mini-switch is active, it would remain so in Positions 2 & 4. If you review the diagrams I posted earlier, they each state that at the top.

A thought just came to me while explaining about the parallel.. i was already aware of this but never thought to mention to you til now: in Positions 2 and 4, when Parallel mode of the Neck pup is active, will NOT be hum-canceling. That is because the Bridge pickup is still getting split and it doesn't have a matching single coil to cancel its 60 cycle hum. Please check if you notice 60 cycle hum in Positions 2 and 4 only when Neck pickup is in parallel mode. If yes, then we have a resolution to that problem.

The cap that was originally across the left and middle of the volume pot acted as a Treble Bleed circuit. Those function to prevent loss of treble frequencies as the volume pot is turned down. So, it will not help with the overly bass-heavy problem that is always present with the Neck pickup, as you described it. I will ponder different options to suggest for you to try to resolve that neck pickup low end problem. But currently, its time to go walk the dogs before sunset hits Haha. TTYL

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

I guess not so much "on" was the surprise, both coils on was the surprise - it didn't click to me that it wouldn't still be "split" somehow.

And I'll have to test, but again so far the parallel split positions seem to have far less "noise" (again perhaps not "hum") than the split positions in series - and without the pickup flip and wiring as we expected, maybe that makes sense. Is there any easy way to actively "induce" hum? Cause I get plenty of EMF sounding noise, but not so sure on the hum. Things are just definitely "quieter" in the parallel split positions.

Anyway, I'll try and turn things up and see what I can get to come out and report back. Thanks for the treble bleed info, was wondering what it did.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

I guess not so much "on" was the surprise, both coils on was the surprise - it didn't click to me that it wouldn't still be "split" somehow.

And I'll have to test, but again so far the parallel split positions seem to have far less "noise" (again perhaps not "hum") than the split positions in series - and without the pickup flip and wiring as we expected, maybe that makes sense. Is there any easy way to actively "induce" hum? Cause I get plenty of EMF sounding noise, but not so sure on the hum. Things are just definitely "quieter" in the parallel split positions.

Anyway, I'll try and turn things up and see what I can get to come out and report back. Thanks for the treble bleed info, was wondering what it did.

Darn, i was really hoping you would come back and tell me that the noise in Positions 2 and 4 was only present when the Neck pickup was in parallel mode.

A couple times in the last few replies, you have described a little bit in words, how you made the connections between the PCB side of the switch, the two lugs on the switch side of the swich, and how those ultimately route back to the Volume Pot left lug. I don't feel I have fully grasped your descriptions (my apologies), so would you mind posting a pic of a sketch that shows how all those lugs are connected? A hand-drawn sketch is sufficient for this purpose.

And did the compass you ordered arrive yet - so you could take proper measurements of the polarity on all 4 coils in the 2 pickups?

Thanks

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Yeah actually responded to that on page 3, polarity is as expected - the same between both. North is the coils toward the neck, south coils toward the bridge.

I'll get you a drawing of everything and I'll try and get more testing info on the noise/hum-canceling

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Yeah actually responded to that on page 3, polarity is as expected - the same between both. North is the coils toward the neck, south coils toward the bridge.

I'll get you a drawing of everything and I'll try and get more testing info on the noise/hum-canceling

Yes, I recall your response from Page 3 about your polaritytest using the Mojotone pickup, but if you did order a compass like you mentioned previously, that would be a better test since the pickup-based test is reliant on knowing the polarity of the reference pickup.

In your reply above, it sounds to me like you are saying the North coil of the Neck pickup is currently situated so it is closer to the Neck of the guitar, vs it being closer to the Bridge? That would mean you do have the Neck pickup rotated 180° - which is fine because that is what the diagrams call out - but I recall you saying in Reply #40 that you ended up rotating the Neck pickup back to normal position. So, with North coil close to the neck of the guitar , you are getting both inner and both outers in positions 2 amd 4, yes? Also, is the Seymour Duncan logo on that pickup rightside up currently or upside down?

I look forward to the sketch from you that shows the connections that are tied to the left lug of the volume pot.

I went ahead and updated the drawing to more accurately reflect how the switch should look orientation wise. No connections were changed, and Position 1 lugs remain situated near the top/neck and Position 5 lugs near rhe rwar of the guitar, but maybe looking at it in this persective (which should match what you see in your control cavity) may spark an idea or question.

Thanks

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Sorry if it wasn't clear, I did get a polarity tester and used that, it points north for both pickups on the neck-side coil.

Logos are currently facing the same way (upright when neck faces up), originally I had the neck flipped so it's logo was upside down and that's when I got "uppers and lowers" rather than "inners and outers". Maybe it was a bad assumption on my part that the "normal" orientation was logos aligned?

We've had a ton of rain here and I had to deal with some minor flooding yesterday, but I'll get the updated diagram from my side in here today. And I'll take a look at the one you just sent. If my assumption about the logos was wrong then maybe this has all been "as expected" from the start and I feel like an absolute idiot for wasting so much of your time.

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Here's the "sketch" of how it's wired. I was pointing out that I used a jumper between the two sides of the switch where the diagram shows two individual leads from the jumper on each respective side.



EDIT: I realized I drew the line for the PCB jumper going all the way to lug 1 on the switch - it does not go there, it ends at 2 - sorry!

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Here's the "sketch" of how it's wired. I was pointing out that I used a jumper between the two sides of the switch where the diagram shows two individual leads from the jumper on each respective side.

View attachment 104858

See the attached pic below which has markups of your last diagram.

First off, please see my note in the top left corner about your superwwitch position numbering being backwards. It would be helpful for our future discussions if you corrected for that so I don't need to continually make a mental adjustment for that.

Next, i circled in yellow-orange the jumper connection you asked about in your last reply. That seems fine to me.

Next, i circled in Red the lug on the top left/PCB side. Your diagram shows that this lug is connected to your common wire that goes to the volume pot. This lug needs to be disconnected. I imagine either this is simply just an error in your drawing, or if you really have it connected, its because of the confusion about the selector switch numbering. FYI: this is *not* contributing to the hum problems we are trying to solve in Positions 2 and 4.

Next, i circled in Purple, the area where the ground wire from the Switch side crosses over the PCB side of the switch. I can't tell from your diagram, but please confirm that that wire does not actually connect to anything on the PCB side. If it does, please disconnect it. I imagine its not really connected, but i am checking just in case.

In summary, while there are 1 or 2 errors here (which should be corrected), I don't see any of them relating to the hum problems we are trying to solve in Positions 2 and 4. See my next reply for more about that - i was already writing something up based on your previous reply (# 70).

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Sorry if it wasn't clear, I did get a polarity tester and used that, it points north for both pickups on the neck-side coil.

Logos are currently facing the same way (upright when neck faces up), originally I had the neck flipped so it's logo was upside down and that's when I got "uppers and lowers" rather than "inners and outers". Maybe it was a bad assumption on my part that the "normal" orientation was logos aligned?

We've had a ton of rain here and I had to deal with some minor flooding yesterday, but I'll get the updated diagram from my side in here today. And I'll take a look at the one you just sent. If my assumption about the logos was wrong then maybe this has all been "as expected" from the start and I feel like an absolute idiot for wasting so much of your time.

Sorry to hear about the flooding. What a pain in the a** that is.

So based on what you just reported about the Neck pickup, I believe we have a major development. It seems that the magnet in the Neck pickup came from the factory with the magnet flipped in the wrong direction. Because with the pickup sitting in "normal positon" (i.e. not rotated where its printed logo would be upside down), the coil facing the neck of the guitar on the Neck humbucker should have South polarity, not North. *But* since you report that there is hum in Positions 2 and 4 when the mini-switch is set so that Neck pickup is in Series mode, we can also deduce that the wind direction on the two coils is normal, so the Neck pickup was NOT set up as a Reverse Wind/ Reverse Polarity (RWRP) pickup at the factory. The Neck pickup simply has the magnet flipped in the wrong direction, without the additional step of reverse winding each coil which would make it RWRP.

To verify this further, please swap the places between where Neck pickup South Start wire (green) and Neck pickup North Start wire (black) are currently connected at the mini-switch. As a result black wire will now get routed to ground and green wire will now get routed to the superswitch. Then please listen to the results plugged into an amplifier and confirm that positions 2 and 4 are now hum-free with the mini-switch set to Series mode, and that there is no new problems in the other 3 superswitch positions.

!! [Edit: more wiring changes need to occur than just swapping Neck black and green wires. I will draw up a diagram for you a little later. The Switch side connections will be impacted.]

Thanks

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

I submitted an edit likely just before you posted that I did draw that in error.

You are correct the jumper to ground does not connect or touch anything else - it's just poorly drawn without the proper "humps" showing that it goes "over" the other wires/lugs.

I will flip the numbering sorry!

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

For completeness sake, here's an updated diagram that should be numbered as you asked, and has everything corrected to reflect the current connections - with actual connections highlighted a little better:

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

For completeness sake, here's an updated diagram that should be numbered as you asked, and has everything corrected to reflect the current connections - with actual connections highlighted a little better:

View attachment 104863

Rex,

Thanks.

See the last paragraph in my reply @ #72, and all of my reply @ #73. Working on a diagram for you now, should have it posted for you in about an hour or so.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Sorry to hear about the flooding. What a pain in the a** that is.

So based on what you just reported about the Neck pickup, I believe we have a major development. It seems that the magnet in the Neck pickup came from the factory with the magnet flipped in the wrong direction. Because with the pickup sitting in "normal positon" (i.e. not rotated where its printed logo would be upside down), the coil facing the neck of the guitar on the Neck humbucker should have South polarity, not North. *But* since you report that there is hum in Positions 2 and 4 when the mini-switch is set so that Neck pickup is in Series mode, we can also deduce that the wind direction on the two coils is normal, so the Neck pickup was NOT set up as a Reverse Wind/ Reverse Polarity (RWRP) pickup at the factory. The Neck pickup simply has the magnet flipped in the wrong direction, without the additional step of reverse winding each coil which would make it RWRP.

To verify this further, please swap the places between where Neck pickup South Start wire (green) and Neck pickup North Start wire (black) are currently connected at the mini-switch. As a result black wire will now get routed to ground and green wire will now get routed to the superswitch. Then please listen to the results plugged into an amplifier and confirm that positions 2 and 4 are now hum-free with the mini-switch set to Series mode, and that there is no new problems in the other 3 superswitch positions.

!! [Edit: more wiring changes need to occur than just swapping Neck black and green wires. I will draw up a diagram for you a little later. The Switch side connections will be impacted.]

Thanks

Here's that diagram. The wiring is now similar to what some others suggested earlier on the basis of flipping the neck pickup, except in this case, it seems to have come from the manufacturer already flipped.

Following is a summary of changes:
[edit]: 1. Mini-switch: connection to ground swaps places with connection to the superswitch
2. Superswitch: Switch side lug 2 now goes to Ground instead of to Volume Pot Left Lug.
3. Superswitch: Switch side lug 4 now goes to Volume Pot Left Lug instead of Ground.

 

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

Ok

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

After some further thought, I think it's a good idea to run some diagnostics on your two pickups using a multimeter , before we modify the wiring scheme further. We already suspect something unusual occuring with the neck pickup, so these diagnostic tests will tell us more.

Use this instructional video for the tests to perform. Particularly the one occuring at about minutes 7 to 10 in the video where he shows how to determine which of the two wires per coil are positive or negative - that tells us the wind direction of each coil, which I am particularly interested in for the Neck pickup.
https://youtu.be/7UfxQBhqen8

If you do not already own a digital multimeter, expect to pay roughly between $20 and $30 for one of minimal decent quality. For example, I use a Sears Craftsman model that i saw listed online in that price range. A digitial multimeter is an invaluable tool that you will use frequently when working on the electronics in your guitars. Besides what I am asking you to use it for here, you can also use it to verify the value of pots before installation, as well as verify pickups are in working order or not before installation, check for continuity of each solder joint as just a couple examples.