HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

[MarctheRobot]

***Disclaimer - I am insane due to this wiring torture***

So this is my first post. Been an observer for a long time and I'm really not sure whether this is the best (most appropriate) site to use but I've read a lot of good, general pick-up advice on here so here goes.

I have what you might consider a very easy install:

HH configuration with two Bill Lawrence L90's – bare, black and red
One 500k Bourns tone
One 500k Bourns volume
One 0.47 capacitor
3-way box toggle switch.
Switchcraft jack

I've been following this diagram (amongst others) for the last two god damn days now:



I consulted the Ibanez website for wiring diagrams too (for the GR320) to no avail.

What's different from the diagram?

- Well, for a start, the jack came pre-wired with one covered in black cloth and another in white cloth. I've tried both in the central terminal on the Volume pot and neither have produced any results.

- The 3-way box selector switch. I'd imagine the one in the diagram is based around a Switchcraft switch. This one has a terminal on one side in the centre and 3 terminals on the other side - think cheapo Epiphone switch.

- The wire from the central terminal on the selector switch. I've tried it going from the tone pot and volume pot and neither produce any results.

- The wiring from the pick-ups. One black and bare, and another red. When I got them, the black and bare were soldered off so I assumed the red was the live wire (as opposed to black in the diagram). I attached them to each respective terminal on the switch and... yep, you guessed it, nothing. The pick-ups do work, by the way.

The pots and jack are no longer in stellar condition because of this but I have a few lying around so just need some decent instructions and a diagram that is more appropriate, and then when I know it works, I'll put some new pots in there.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[jmcorey]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Are the L90s recent, from Bill and Becky, or are they older? On some L465s from Bill and Becky made in the 2000s, the white is hot, while black and blue go to ground.

If yours are older, then I'm not sure. You might want to check the Wilde (Bill and Becky site) as well as Bill Lawrence USA.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Yeah they're from the 80's a far as I'm aware. The pick-ups aren't really my concern, to be honest. It's the circuit I'm attaching them to that's the problem.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Once you identify the "hot" from the pickup you just have to think of it like water flowing through a stream: the hot from each pickup goes to each of the outside terminals on your box switch, and then flows out from the center terminal. (I've used box switches before - if yours has three terminals this is how they work.) Wire that straight to your jack and see if you get sound. If you do, then add in the volume pot. Hot from the switch to the left terminal into the pot. Then out of the pot from the middle terminal to the jack. Ground the right terminal.
*By the way, I have no idea why the diagram above puts the volume pot in FRONT of the switch. If you are only using one volume control it's simpler to go pickup -> volume ->jack

IF this produces sound and the volume control works, then add in the tone control. It just has to be connected to the "hot" wire on either the jack, the volume pot, OR the switch. (JUST ONE, not all three).

That should do it.

I have some old Lawrence K-500 pickups at home. Red COULD be "hot" and black COULD be ground, but it's also possible that red is hot and bare is ground and black is "coil tap." Try hooking a pickup up with just bare and red, and then with bare and black if that doesn't work. If you only have a total of 3 wires including the bare wire then one is "hot" and one is "vintage," which is a coil tap.
I do not know why Bill Lawrence changed his wiring colors more than once over the years, and I do not know why he then acted as if those color codes are top secret information. I can't remember where I found the correct colors for my pickups but it wasn't on any of the Bill & Becky Lawrence websites.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Once you identify the "hot" from the pickup you just have to think of it like water flowing through a stream

So...

- Hot from pick ups goes to right and left terminal on switch.
- Wire goes from central terminal to left terminal on volume pot.
- Wire goes from middle terminal on volume pot to left terminal on tone.
- Capacitor goes to middle terminal on tone pot.
- Hot wire from jack goes to middle terminal on tone pot (query?)

Ground fourth terminal on switch (where?)
Ground right terminal on volume pot (bend it or wire it?)
Ground right terminal on tone (query?)
Ground jack to... (?)

Sorry, I'm just drawing this up now and need some more detail.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

I still say try it all without the tone involved first, because the hot signal doesn't "flow through" it in the same way.

Right now you're trying to make the tone pot part of the "flow" and that's not how a tone control works. The hot wire (at ANY point in the signal) goes to the left terminal on the tone pot. The middle terminal gets the capacitor soldered to it and the other end of the capacitor goes to ground. In the diagram you posted, the ground is just the case on the pot. THAT'S IT. No wire goes to either of the other terminals on the tone pot. If you look at the diagram above they are running hot to the tone left terminal and from the tone left terminal to the switch. That's because the hot signal doesn't flow "through" the tone control, it flows PAST it. Some of the signal gets dumped to ground through the capacitor as you turn that knob down.

SO...basically you have one "hot" wire running from the pickup to the switch to the volume pot to the jack, and the tone pot is connected to that one wire at any point. And you have a ground wire connected to the pickup, switch, pots, and jack. The "fourth" tab on your switch is the ground, the pots can be grounded by soldering directly to the case, and one tab on your output jack is "hot" and the other is "ground." On a Switchcraft jack the tab closer to the middle of the jack is ground and the one closer to the outside of the jack is "hot."

The switch ground, volume pot, and jack all are the same ground. You can either run a wire from the switch to the pots to the jack terminal, or run a wire from each one of those to some central ground. As long as they are all hooked to each other AND the bridge or tailpiece it will work.

You could use a wire to ground the third volume terminal, but guitar manufacturers (and I) just bend it until it touches the case and then solder it.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity



Ok, here is a really quick and lame diagram for you to follow. A couple notes:
1) I am just assuming that the pickup red wire is "hot" and black is "ground," but that might not be correct. But the bare wire from your pickup is definitely ground. I still think that one of the two insulated wires is likely to be the coil tap wire. Try hooking the pickup up with just the bare wire and ONE of the other two wires at a time and see if that works.
2) The "hot" wire should NOT touch the volume pot case - that was just a slip of my pen. It goes from the center switch terminal right to the terminal on the volume pot.
3) The "hot" wire on the tone pot can connect to the jack OR the middle terminal on the volume pot. It does not matter. The most recent guitar I built is wired exactly like you see here, with a wire running from just the tone pot terminal to just the output jack terminal.
4) The third tab on the tone pot doesn't go anywhere. It just gets left empty.

If you look at the diagram and think about the "flow" of signal, you see that the pickup, switch, pots, and jack are all grounded to the same ground no matter where the ground wires run to and from. Same with the "hot" signal: from pickup through the switch, through the volume pot, to the jack.

The tone control is just beside all of that, bleeding off high frequencies when you turn it down. It can do that anywhere between the pickup and the amplifier.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

FOUND IT! The bare wire on those pickups is ground. The red wire is "hot." The black wire is NOT ground, it is the "vintage tone" wire, which is basically a coil tap. Tape it off and don't connect it to anything.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

FOUND IT! The bare wire on those pickups is ground. The red wire is "hot." The black wire is NOT ground, it is the "vintage tone" wire, which is basically a coil tap. Tape it off and don't connect it to anything.

So say I wanted a coil tap...:18:

No, I won't go into that just yet. I'm going to do this and see if it works first before venturing into other territory. A temptation of mine was to do a 'Megabucker' mod but I'd rather focus on just getting the damn thing to work first.

I'll try and give it a go today. Thanks for the advice - oddly, the diagram you drew is exactly the same as the one I drew.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Incidentally, I've just done a drawing using your diagram that represents the 'actual' wiring inside my Ibanez GR320... and it's not pretty. I'm going to have to do something about that and plan the attack so it doesn't end up with a cavity full of overly long wires.

- I've been grounding the black and bare wires [from the pickups] to the back of the volume pot so there's a mass of wire coming out of the pick-ups at the minute. Still plenty of cable left so I'll cut it back and tidy it up now I know to tape the black and solder the bare wires to the ground terminal. Keeps all of the wires in the ame place.

- Bit concerned about the volume to tone/tone to volume connection. In your diagram, there isn't one so I'm wondering how it's likely to affect the signal? It defies every diagram I've seen, in fact. There's seemingly no logical connection.

Most diagrams I've seen show the left terminal on the volume connecting to the left terminal on the tone. Then a second wire connects from the left terminal on the volume to the centeral terminal on the box switch?

- My 'Hot' connection on my output jack has ONE wire. It's also complicated by the fact it's pre-wired and tube-wrapped, and you're saying I can either connect to the middle terminal on the volume pot "OR" the middle terminal on the tone pot. If that's the case, where is the connection between the Volume and Tone? Or do you mean that I have to connect to both and get rid of the existent wire? As it stands, I don't have two "Hot" wires on my output jack.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

About the tone: if it makes you feel better you can wire the tone pot to the left terminal on the volume pot. It is the same exact connection because it's still just the "hot" signal. Some Fenders wire to the output jack like I show. It works exactly the same because the tone control just sort of modifies the hot signal, it doesn't turn it up and down (like the volume pot) OR on and off like the switch. On one of my guitars I even have an on/off toggle that completely disconnects the tone control from the circuit. Everything else works exactly the same whether it's on or off but the tone only works when that one wire is "on" to the hot signal.
If you look at the first diagram you posted above you'll realize there is only one wire connected to the tone pot terminals: the "hot" signal wire. The pot itself gets grounded. That's it. That's how they are wired. If you try to have wires on more than one terminal it won't work.

About your jack: I thought you just had the regular Switchcraft switch, like this: On those jacks the tab closest to the middle is the ground and the tab closer to the outside of the jack is the "hot" terminal.
If you're dealing with a wire that is already attached to the jack it's no problem, just wire the LEFT TONE terminal to the MIDDLE VOLUME pot terminal instead of to the jack. It is the same as far as the signal is concerned. That way you only have your one hot wire at the jack.

Please don't take this personally, but it's starting to sound like you might want to get some help from someone who has done more guitar wiring?

The whole black/red/bare pickup wires thing is a mystery that most people would not know, but everything else is very straightforward and pretty much the same on any guitar with two pickups, a switch, one volume and one tone control. There shouldn't be any crazy long wires or tangled mess. One ground wire that connects the output jack, both pots, and the switch and one "hot" wire that goes from the switch to the volume pot to the jack with a short jumper from the volume pot to the tone pot.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

This is not a professional job and the wires are all black so it's a bit hard to tell what is what, but this is about what your guitar should look like once it's all wired up:
This is not my guitar, I just did a quick Google search and this was the first picture I found with one volume, one tone, box switch, and jack like I think you are describing. He has his tone capacitor wired differently, but if you stick with the method shown in the Seymour Duncan diagram you posted (middle terminal at one end, grounded to pot case at the other end) it will be even more simple and clean with even less wires. It's also makes it easier to remove the tone pot if you ever need to.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Please don't take this personally...

*sigh*

Forgive me if I do sound like a novice. The guy I would have entrusted this job to died 2 months ago so I'm getting into guitar tech stuff myself. Have played the damn things for 17 years - never thought to get into the electronics side. I don't know many taxi drivers who can fix their cars either.

I followed your diagram again. I also looked at the photo you posted with interest. I took the Tone out of the equation completely and was just left with the Volume. I've tried 4 different Volume pots.



The wiring is fine.

- Red wires to left and right terminals on switch.
- Wire from central terminal on switch to left terminal on volume pot.
- Output "Hot" to central terminal on Volume pot.
- Ground wires from pick-ups to "Fourth" terminal.
- Ground wire from jack to volume pot.

No sound other than hum for the obvious reason that I didn't ground to bridge, nor did I tape up the black wires. Even tried the Black wires to see if they worked too.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Well, you would still get sound without the bridge ground. Cant see much in the photo. Sure you have the jack wired up right? Sure the switch is good? Got a meter?

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

I am sorry for the loss of your friend. That is rough.

I am having a hard time seeing the wires clearly in your photo because I am just on my phone, but it looks like there might not be a ground wire running from the volume pot to the switch? There needs to be a continuous line for the hot from the pick up through the switch in the pot to the Jack and of the ground from the pick up to the switch to the pot to the Jack.

If you're u do you have a ground and I can't see it, then I do not know why it is not working for you. Someone with more troubleshooting experience will have to jump in.
I wasn't joking about taking it to somebody, though. I don't know how much they charge for that sort of work, but it is not difficult for someone with experience.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

^^^ This^^^ You have the tone pot out of the equation and that's fine. I see what looks like the jack to ground on your volume pot but no ground from switch to pot.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

Yeah he was my guitar tech for about 12 years and possessed all the wizardry to make tasks like this seem easy. He was also very, very quick about it and turnaround time would be within hours. He dealt with amps mainly. I wasn't hoping to get into this as a profession - I just wanted to learn how to fix my own guitars rather than rely on others. 1. Because of expense. 2. Because of time.

Bodywork isn't a problem (pretty good at it, come to think of it) but electronics is it's own form of sorcery.

But yeah, I didn't put a ground on the switch. The pickups, jack and volume pot are all grounded. I have subsequently put a ground from switch to pot and still absolutely nothing from the pickups. I don't have a multimeter but at the same time, one isn't needed for the pick-ups because I know for a fact they work. I just can't get on with this circuit. Have done two Les Pauls absolutely fine without any issue whatsoever.

 

[MarctheRobot]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

This was another diagram I followed:



This was a weird one, actually.

This circuit allowed me to hear the pick-ups but the tone knob didn't work, so it was more or less what I'm doing now albeit unintentional. The tone from the pick-ups though, could only be described as a "Honk" - similar to a Telecaster, which (in hindsight) leads me to think the Red might actually be this mysterious 'Vintage'/'Coil tap' tone you speak of? Certainly wasn't a Humbucker. I have no idea. I also soldered off the Black and Bare wires and ground them to the Volume pot.

I just remember it being the only sign of life I've had from this guitar. The capacitor I intended to use has snapped so there's no point doing this one anymore, hence why I'm focusing on just trying to get the volume to work at the minute.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

A meter isn't just about checking the pickups. If you are going to do your own wiring, you need one. Switch could be fried (too much heat), pot could be fried (too much heat), solder joint could be bad (cold joint), switch could be wired wrong, a meter can diagnose every one of those things. I'm sorry your tech passed on. Maybe time to find a new one. Actually, anyone with a little bit of electronics experience, a meter, and some soldering skill should be able to get it sorted out. Anyone else local to you that you can call on? Hell, maybe another player that you know has done some of his own wiring. It doesn't get much more simple in terms of what you are trying to do. Anyone with a little experience should be able to sort it out quickly, as long as the parts are still good, or they have some spares on hand.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: HH, 3-way wiring... insanity

One more thought. I know Dave said the black was a tap wire but have you tried connecting it along with the the ground (bare wire). I think you mentioned in your original post that they were originally tied together. Worth a shot.