High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Seems weird though... He already has an BLUSA L500XL which is the actual pickup that was used during the pantera era. While the dimebucker was a later sound that I'm not even sure he ever recorded with.

I keep seeing people shove the dimebucker down his throat but the pickup thats on CFH came from BLUSA. Not saying the dimebucker is bad just saying it seems like its a serious side move and not a move up.

Well, after owning a Bill Lawrence USA and a Dimebucker I would say the Dimebucker is higher output and sports a much better build quality. I have not tried my Wilde Bill 500XL yet (that project is winding down!) The Dimebucker uses Ceramic magnets and has thinner Stainless Steel Blades...just seems more responsive and more ballsy to me (but again, I haven't tried my Wilde 500XL yet)

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Seems weird though... He already has an BLUSA L500XL which is the actual pickup that was used during the pantera era. While the dimebucker was a later sound that I'm not even sure he ever recorded with.

I keep seeing people shove the dimebucker down his throat but the pickup thats on CFH came from BLUSA. Not saying the dimebucker is bad just saying it seems like its a serious side move and not a move up.

A few thoughts.

1) Dime used various BLUSA, and Wilde pickups from before and after the split if the information I have read has been accurate.
2) BLUSA from different eras sound different. I have had a few and the sound was not consistent. Some of the old ones sound good, but the newer ones to me sound thin, shrill and just awful. I have encountered some good BLUSA pickups. I have an excellent sounding L550L (L500 for p90 route). They had thicker blades, with a grey, not red lead. Also the way the pickups lead is connected and split is different. I have A/B d it with a modern L550 and the sound was drastically different.
3) the things the OP mentioned not liking would seem to me, from my experience be fixed by a Wilde.

Given the way some of the BLUSA pickups sound, I think it would be a serious step up.

 

[Photoneshop121]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

It's true it's more of a move to the side and I've always loved dime's earlier tones, but I haven't really heard the dimebucker in a way I didn't like and I just don't get along with the BLusa. If it turns out to be a bad move, I can always return it within 30 days because thomann is great, but if not, then I think it'll be a good upgrade because I like the intended character of the BLusa, but I just feel like it's never going to perform to my tastes. As I've said, a hint too much clang, too thin and not enough perceived output. The dimebucker is between the BLusa and the Wilde (which is an option, if I can find someway that doesn't impart ridiculous shipping costs) in terms of treble (or so I've read many times, we'll see about that) and in terms of thickness. So frankly, I have a feeling that the dimebucker is a better move than a very different pickup because I like the voicing of it. Also, Seymour Duncan has earnt my trust as far as build quality goes because even the Duncan designed actives I have in a different guitar (I still have the legit blackouts in my other main guitar) are better built than my BLusa. That's my explanation of why I'm going for the dimebucker as opposed to a different pickup.

 

[Photoneshop121]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

The Wilde is an option, but for convenience I'm going dimebucker. If I still need a similar voicing and more balls to my sound, I'll pick up (pun intended) a Wilde.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

A few thoughts.

1) Dime used various BLUSA, and Wilde pickups from before and after the split if the information I have read has been accurate.
2) BLUSA from different eras sound different. I have had a few and the sound was not consistent. Some of the old ones sound good, but the newer ones to me sound thin, shrill and just awful. I have encountered some good BLUSA pickups. I have an excellent sounding L550L (L500 for p90 route). They had thicker blades, with a grey, not red lead. Also the way the pickups lead is connected and split is different. I have A/B d it with a modern L550 and the sound was drastically different.
3) the things the OP mentioned not liking would seem to me, from my experience be fixed by a Wilde.

Given the way some of the BLUSA pickups sound, I think it would be a serious step up.

I believe you are right in that he used both before and after the split. But ultimately ended up with a slightly more powerful Seymour Duncan. I've read/heard rurmors about inconsistencies with BLUSA and the whole debate of USA vs Wilde as the reason he went to Seymour Duncan...but I haven't seen/heard anything from Dimebag himself on why he left and went to Seymour Duncan.

I would say give the Dimebucker a try and see what you think...I think it is what he is looking for.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

A few thoughts.

1) Dime used various BLUSA, and Wilde pickups from before and after the split if the information.

Dead untrue... Wilde did not even exist at the time. He only had old Bill Lawerence pickups that he could get used or new BLUSA

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Dead untrue... Wilde did not even exist at the time. He only had old Bill Lawerence pickups that he could get used or new BLUSA

I thought that both Bill Lawrence the man and Jzchak Wajcman claimed to have made Dimebag's pickups...good point about Wilde did not exist before the split though.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

...but I haven't seen/heard anything from Dimebag himself on why he left and went to Seymour Duncan.

SD courted Dimebag for a long time as an endorser and even gave him a ton of one off pups to try and cop his sound using a more traditional PAF format which they couldnt do, and they werent willing to spend the money to tool up to produce a L500XL pickup. It wasnt until years later that SD decided that the money outlay and income would be profitable. Pretty sure the whole story is on SD's website.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

I thought that both Bill Lawrence the man and Jzchak Wajcman claimed to have made Dimebag's pickups...good point about Wilde did not exist before the split though.

Claim is one thing... did could very well be another. Dimebag himself is on video having said that the pickups were bought from stewmac, stewmac only carried BLUSA. You can find photos of various dime guitars with the BLUSA logo on the pups.

From what I know in the beginning it was all stuff he got from stewmac... later when Bill Lawerence returned to the US he made some one off stuff for Dime bag...this time frame was post Pantera during the damage plan era.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

SD courted Dimebag for a long time as an endorser and even gave him a ton of one off pups to try and cop his sound using a more traditional PAF format which they couldnt do, and they werent willing to spend the money to tool up to produce a L500XL pickup. It wasnt until years later that SD decided that the money outlay and income would be profitable. Pretty sure the whole story is on SD's website.

Very interesting

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Claim is one thing... did could very well be another. Dimebag himself is on video having said that the pickups were bought from stewmac, stewmac only carried BLUSA. You can find photos of various dime guitars with the BLUSA logo on the pups.

From what I know in the beginning it was all stuff he got from stewmac... later when Bill Lawerence returned to the US he made some one off stuff for Dime bag...this time frame was post Pantera during the damage plan era.

See, that is something I never knew about (never saw a video of Dimebag stating that) but I had heard that Dimebag ordered from Stewmac–so that would make sense that he for sure used the BLUSA. I thought reading up on Bill Lawrence (Wilde) that he designed the L500's. Or is that something that we just don't know/debated between USA and Wilde?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

See, that is something I never knew about (never saw a video of Dimebag stating that) but I had heard that Dimebag ordered from Stewmac–so that would make sense that he for sure used the BLUSA. I thought reading up on Bill Lawrence (Wilde) that he designed the L500's. Or is that something that we just don't know/debated between USA and Wilde?

If you dig around youtube you can find it. (Sorry for being lazy and not digging up the link) Its a music store demo dime did in texas in 1994 and he does a Q and A session and he talks about it.

Bill Lawerence did design the pickups originally in the late 70's but by the late 80's the only new ones you could get were the BLUSA which by then was the ashes the Bill Lawerence company. In reality there were multiple incarnations of the company. I have a set labeled from the mid 80's as OBL which stood for "Original Bill Lawerence" (those things were awful)

I dont think anyone debates at all who designed the pickup, the debate is over which is the real one and which is the most true to the patent. It is true there are multiple versions but there is no evidence (pictoral or media) that show dimebag using any of the thicker blade or radius blade ones.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

If you dig around youtube you can find it. (Sorry for being lazy and not digging up the link) Its a music store demo dime did in texas in 1994 and he does a Q and A session and he talks about it.

Bill Lawerence did design the pickups originally in the late 70's but by the late 80's the only new ones you could get were the BLUSA which by then was the ashes the Bill Lawerence company. In reality there were multiple incarnations of the company. I have a set labeled from the mid 80's as OBL which stood for "Original Bill Lawerence" (those things were awful)

I dont think anyone debates at all who designed the pickup, the debate is over which is the real one and which is the most true to the patent. It is true there are multiple versions but there is no evidence (pictoral or media) that show dimebag using any of the thicker blade or radius blade ones.

Ha! No worries man! I never really cared for Pantera personally (just not something I liked) but I was always intrigued by Dimebag's tragic story which led me to look up his gear and all. After trying a Dimebucker it became one of my favorite pickups and I mainly do Rock.

I got into Bill Lawrences after using a Lawrence A300 (BLUSA) that sounded amazing. Then ordered from Wilde Bill and Becky's 500XLs felt so much better made than the BLUSAs set I had. But I haven't taken them for a spin yet...that project should be getting finished by Octoberish.

I thought I read an article or something by Jzchak Wajcman where he claimed to have made the oringal 500XL for Dimebag...which sounds like a very real possibility with the StewMac facts...but am glad that Bill Lawrence (the man) wasn't lying about designing it.

 

[Photoneshop121]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

So to summarise my knowledge of this. The l500 design comes into existence from the original Bill Lawrence, however BLusa sold the Stewmac copies which Dimebag bought and used in his guitars. The BLusa L500xls aren't sold by Stewmac or anybody for quite a while, meaning Dimebag has to buy used. As the Stewmac drop of the Blusa happens around (possibly due to) the split, Dimebag never gets to try Wilde branded pickups and is likely still using old copies of l500xls or the prototypes Blusa (this is the most unsure bit of the history I know about) made for him. Seymour Duncan having reached out earlier, catch Dimebag's interest as they can make rail pickups now, and start developing the official Dimebucker off of the "l500xxl" prototype so called in Seymour Duncan's explanation of the Dimebucker. However, they were only used on the Damageplan tour and never recorded with. Dime bag's untimely death doesn't stop him signing to the Dimebucker and now we have 2 companies saying they've got the pickup Dime used, and Wilde starting up to continue as Bill Lawrence really wanted Blusa to. That's what I've summarised of the pickup history, but I might be wrong. Correct me if I am.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Ummm not quite... Ok to make things easier with the names Bill Lawerence was a stage name for the man named Willi Stich. The partnership between Willi Stich and Wajcman starts around 1965 and goes through different iterations as Willi works for different companies such as Ampeg and Gibson, They started a company called "Lawerence sound research" in the mid 70s. In 1984 Willi leaves the company and leaves the country and goes back to Germany. Wajcman aquires the rights to the designs and the name "Bill Lawerence" and continues making pickups under the name BLUSA. In 1985 in germany Willi starts a company called "Original Bill Lawerence" or OBL for short. (this company produced familiar designs like the L500 and L250.) In 1987 Willi returns to the US to work for Gibson and lets Gibson use the name OBL for some of their import pickups. In 1995 under the Bill Lawerence name Willi starts making pickups again on a limited basis. This results in a lawsuit by Wajcman which is later settled in his favor. As far as the courts are concerned he owns the rights to the name and designs. In 2003 Willi moves to California and starts "Wylde USA"

The BLUSA pickups are the ONLY ones sold by stewmac are the only new L500's that Dimebag could have gotten. It is possible that Dimebag had earlier versions that he had bought used but there is no evidence of it, it is only acknowledged that it could be a possibility.

By the late mid to late 90's Dimebag was in contact with Willi and Willi was making the one off prototypes for Dimebag. Dimebag calles them the L500XXL's These are the closest in sound to what he wants at the time. So SD steps in and reverse engineers it and helps Dimebag refine the design to become the dimebucker.

What you got is one guy saying "I designed the pickup that was used on CHF" then you got another that is saying "I made the pickup that was used on CHF" and both are correct.

Neither the Wylde USA L500XL or the Dimebucker are the same design as the pickup that was used on CHF. The only one that is the same design is the BLUSA.

Sidenote the dimebucker was never meant to be just a L500XL copy... it was suppose to be the next step in Dimebags pickup evolution.

 

[EDX]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

i think thats the duncan blog entry about dime, where he tells that there were the pickups he had on his deans (BLUSA) and they were no longer made (stewmac no longer carriging blusa or hit or miss pickup tone) and that the pickups he was getting custom made for him weren't avaible for the public plus not totally giving him the tone he wanted (i assume wilde l500xxl/l500l+/l500xl+ or whatever bill called them) thats the part of the story in wich dime says duncan enters, as thanks to his washburn sigs needing pickups with the washburn order now duncan can justify the plastic injection machine for building the l500 casing, the pickup on the cowboys guitar and one of the best sounding prototypes dime had were reverse engeenered and their tone taken as base for the dimebucker

so you can say he 3 companies have made the DIME pickup, and that dime played the 3, just on diferent periods of time, anyway, the thing isn't a dime played this or that, is wich of the pickups suits the op the best, since he's aiming for dimebag tone, i know the pickup alone won't get you dime, but the right pickup is important, the 3 are on the ballpark and are capable of get you the base tone you process with gear, but they will differ

now the mix on this video and the amp settings having so little high end (dime cranked the highs on the amp prescense since the treble knob acted like a fuzz past some point (randall rg100es)) and lowmids grind makes the diferentiation harder, thought is the only video i could find featuring the 3 pickups

hear with headphones, pay lots of attention and you will notice the difference even through the sound post production

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Dead untrue... Wilde did not even exist at the time. He only had old Bill Lawerence pickups that he could get used or new BLUSA

They were not sold under the Wilde name. But the Wilde sound pretty damn near identical to the old, pre split ones. Everyone I know of has confirmed that he used ones made by the man Bill Lawrence, and BLUSA. Reports range from Becky Lawrence, Bill Lawrence, Dime's tech who I heard someone talking to about that, and Jzchak Wajcman, Stewmac, etc that the pickups made by Bill Lawrence the man ended up in his stuff as well as the BLUSA stuff. True, the name wasn't Wilde at that point in Time. But everybody I know of who seems to have examined it seems to concede both companies at points made pickups for Dime. And I have actually spoken to most of the parties involved in person. It was after Dime's death, so not him, but I have talked to Willi Stich,& Jzchak Wajcman. Both of those guys said he had both at various times. The guys from Washburn said so as well. So I am quite confident that he used both. Now both will claim he liked their pickup better, etc but it is pretty well documented Dime had both, which makes statements that he only had one seem kind of silly.

There is a lot more to the lawsuits and name drama, etc. I tried both, and what the OP said he wanted would be rectified by a dimebucker or a wilde l500.

Edgecrusher, you actually agreed with what you called dead untrue. You say he just used them with damage plan era, which means he used them. So please, don't be patronizing when you are dead wrong in saying what I said was dead untrue since you actually agreed with the veracity of my claim. (I am going to say the info is far more spotty the more people I talked to and can only say for sure he had pickups made by both men, and apparently at different times used pickups from all involved parties.) That is as far as I would go based into actually hearing a lot from the folks who would know.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

They were not sold under the Wilde name.

I meant wilde specifically as a name did not exist and no the L500's sold under the wilde name are not the same as the old ones. The blades are different, they have A5 instead of ceramic mags they have different winds and different inductance. These too were suppose to be an evolution on the old sound. Pretty sure the page stating it still exists on the Wilde website how some of the designs were "updated"

No I dont agree and you have a problem with trying to twist what was said, Any statement I made was prefaced with saying either "CHF" or "Pantera" specifically to exclude later eras of tone. Most guys I know think the damage plan tone was not an improvement on the earlier tone.

Dime NEVER used a pickup labeled as "Wilde" get that straight right now as it causes confusion. The earlier pickups are not the same as the Wilde ones. See my earlier statement about the mag change.

 

[Photoneshop121]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

Thanks for the historical help, all of this is actually really interesting!

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: High Gain pickup choosing, sorry but please help

I meant wilde specifically as a name did not exist and no the L500's sold under the wilde name are not the same as the old ones. The blades are different, they have A5 instead of ceramic mags they have different winds and different inductance. These too were suppose to be an evolution on the old sound. Pretty sure the page stating it still exists on the Wilde website how some of the designs were "updated"

The BLUSA blades are Not the same as the old ones. The widths, and materials are different. Supposedly the magnets are as well, but as they are sealed, it would take a saw to check.There are at least 3 varieties. Wilde Pickups are not labled, on the top but Dime supposedly did use a Wilde pickup at points. Some folks reference them as Bill 'n Becky, but that much is pretty much sure.

You did not preface what you said. Let's get that straight. What you said was patently false as provable from your own statements.

No I dont agree and you have a problem with trying to twist what was said, Any statement I made was prefaced with saying either "CHF" or "Pantera" specifically to exclude later eras of tone. Most guys I know think the damage plan tone was not an improvement on the earlier tone.

Nope, it wasn't, at all. You were factually incorrect and self-contradictory. I am not making statements about what was used when. I am making statements that Dime did use both, at various points, which seem to be very well attested.

Dime NEVER used a pickup labeled as "Wilde" get that straight right now as it causes confusion. The earlier pickups are not the same as the Wilde ones. See my earlier statement about the mag change.

The later BLUSA are nowhere near the same as the early ones either. (The older ones sometimes have thick blades. I happen to own one.) They include design changes, so using your logic. Dime never used a BLUSA pickup. In the real world however, it seems dime used old BL pickups, BLUSA, SD, and Wilde at various points. Wilde was around before Dime died and it seems confirmed he had some of those as well.