Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

[Seraphial]

So I'm in the market for a new set of pickups and have decided I want a slightly beefier vintage type tone for my LP.

One question I have is - I like a hotter bridge that'll push the amp into overdrive the more I dig in, and I've found pickups in the 12-14k range do that for me. however, I'm now beginning to question - do you lose that vintage flavor the hotter you go? I was A/Bing my Peavey Wolfgang with an axe that has an Sh-14 and though I love the former pickup, its IMHO not the kind of sound you'd go for if you're playing Zep, etc. For me it starts to shine for harder edged rock (like hair metal) and beyond.

The SH-14 which very much dances on that thin line between power and vintage tone.

Thoughts?

 

[jeremy]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

basically yes. if you put more wire on a pup to get more output, it sounds different. even a 8k paf and 9k paf sound pretty different.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

basically yes. if you put more wire on a pup to get more output, it sounds different. even a 8k paf and 9k paf sound pretty different.

+1

You can get away with something like a WLH which is around 8k in the bridge, whereas a Custom is too hot to really get anything approaching vintage in terms of tone.

My #1 is an SG with a P-Rails set, and they're definitely in Custom territory when configured in series. I find that running them in parallel gets back into that PAF range, so I can have both sounds from the same guitar.

 

[justFred]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

Seth Lovers...=....primo vintage tone....want some beef...get a boost circuit....

 

[Mincer]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

You certainly lose a 'vintage tone' as things get hotter. Also, and just as important, the pickups don't feel the same to play. There is a magic combo of feel/sound that vintage winds get- they are not suited to all kinds of music or styles, but what they do, they do really well.

 

[chadd]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

As you move into higher output pickups, everything gets smoother and you lose some of the old school rock n roll rough edges to the tone. Especially when paired with a modern, high gain amp. High output pickups can get that vintage style tone with a non master volume amp or something that doesn't have a Mesa, 5150, SLO type gain structure.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

"Vintage" isn't a word that means anything when it stands alone. It requires something to specify it. For example, '60's vintage or '70's vintage. The word doesn't simply mean "old." It means "of this specified time period."

Old style, i.e. lower output, pickups can drive amps into overdrive as well. You just need the right amp and the right technique – lower headroom amps and a more dynamic right hand. Looking at it from the other direction, higher output pickups go hand in hand with high headroom amps – and, indeed, were developed to suit said high headroom amps back in the '70's and '80's.

Since you seem to be implying that you can't get breakup from your amp when you "dig in" to a low output pickup, I am assuming that your amp has a healthy amount of headroom – maybe a 50 or 100 watter. But plug something as mild as a Seth or vintage mini-humbucker into a Deluxe Reverb (22W), Princeton Reverb (12W), or something like my little Ampeg (15W), play with gusto, and it's nearly impossible *not* to get breakup.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

^ If vintage applies to Fender and Gibson though, it does apply to a specific period.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

Seymour Duncan uses the word 'vintage' to describe lower output pickups, not just those from a specific era.

 

[Blackie13]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

DMZ super Distortion is vintage right...????
High output made in the 70's...

even EMG 81 which is the metal pickup...was made in 1981...vintage I call it...

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

DMZ super Distortion is vintage right...????
High output made in the 70's...

even EMG 81 which is the metal pickup...was made in 1981...vintage I call it...

Nah, we talking about 50s-60s vintage.

 

[Seraphial]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

So does that mean there's no such thing as a high-output PAF? Cause I've often heard the term PAF on steroids for a few SD pickups. Or even hot-rodded PAF for say, EVH's early tone. Or are they meaning it's high output, but has a specific tonal structure (ie. more mids, etc)?

Are PAF (in tonal terms, not the technical way) and 'vintage tone' interchangeable?

 

[Jacew]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

Seth Lovers...=....primo vintage tone....want some beef...get a boost circuit....

Good suggestion.

That's why I like treble boost in front: Higher output without sacrificing "vintage qualities" of tone.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

paf on steroids doesnt sound like a paf, a hot paf doesnt sound like a paf either. they can be great sounding pups but not the same. hell, there are so many variations of a paf, that one can sound fairly different than another

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

Real "P.A.F." pickups had variations with some hotter than others hence the Billy Gibbons Pearly Gates based off of his '59.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

the pearly gates pickup was made to sound like the guitar, not to copy that pickup. It is very much a PAF in terms of specs, wire, magnet etc but not really tone wise, for some reason. it's gnarlier. more nasty.

The SH14 is great because it balances the two very well: it is tight enough for modern stuff but not so tight and cutting that it won't do the sparkly, chimey vintage tones. However... I don't think it's a true vintage tone.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

i hear the pearly as very much a paf, ive never owned a paf or vintage les paul but have played a number of guitars with those pups including some pre '61 les pauls. lots of flavors of paf out there

 

[Nagisa]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

What was the guitarist using when he recorded X “vintage” song with the sound you’re looking for? That’s going to be the best indicator of what you want to get. Try to narrow it down to one tone you want to go after, instead of an era of tones which were made with different guitars and amps.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

Seymour Duncan uses the word 'vintage' to describe lower output pickups, not just those from a specific era.

Exactly part of the problem. "Vintage" does not mean low output, when used correctly. "Vintage" is used to describe a period or year, which is supposed to be specified along with the word. You can have an '80's vintage JB, for example. Is that a low-output pickup? Is a '70's vintage Super Distortion?

^ If vintage applies to Fender and Gibson though, it does apply to a specific period.

How is this? "Vintage" can have any year attached to it, even this year.

DMZ super Distortion is vintage right...????
High output made in the 70's...

even EMG 81 which is the metal pickup...was made in 1981...vintage I call it...

Exactly.

The point is that the word has a very nebulous meaning when used alone. It needs a "specifier" along with it.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Higher Output = non-vintage tone?

What was the guitarist using when he recorded X “vintage” song with the sound you’re looking for? That’s going to be the best indicator of what you want to get. Try to narrow it down to one tone you want to go after, instead of an era of tones which were made with different guitars and amps.

Everyone can argue the semantics of the word "vintage" for eternity, but this is solid advice right here. I went on a pickup search with one of my guitars but recently was listening to a classic rock station in my car and realized I heard three songs in a row that sound really good to me and all three were recorded with a Dimarzio Super Distortion. Bought one a couple days later, no more searching.

To me, the Super Distortion is a "vintage" pickup: vintage '70s and '80s hard rock. But I call is classic, not vintage.