hot pickup output?

[GoDrex]

I read a lot of things about output and pickups being "hot" or whatever and I'm a little confused.

One of my amps is a Fender Cyber Deluxe. It has a "Trim" knob (hehe) and what it does it let you adjust how much input the amp receives. This is important because it needs to convert the analog signal to digital and if your signal is too hot it gets distorted - not in a good way. The trim knob has a level indicator that lets you know when your signal is peaking.

So since starting experimenting with various pickups I've noticed some things.

My Warmoth LP copy has approximately the same level of output no matter what pickup I try in it. I've tried a Custom, JB, Jazz bridge, '59, C5, C8 (ok this one was maybe a hair louder) JB2, JB8 (again maybe a hair louder) Screamin' Demon, A2Pro, C5/59 hybrid and now finally a Bare Knuckle VHII.

I noticed people talking about the DC resistance in regard to output, but so far the only corellation I can make with DC resistance is how bright or dark and/or distorted the pickup is. The output level is all pretty much the same. Lower resistance seems to equal brighter. High resistance seems to be a bit darker and doesn't sound as nice clean for whatever reason.

For comparison, on a scale from 1 to 10 - the LP needs to be set at around a 3.8 for an optimum input level. My strat with Fender Hot Noiseless pickups needs to be at about 7.5 or so (this means the output of the strat is a lot lower).

So what is a hot pickup? I don't really understand it.

 

[dominus]

Re: hot pickup output?

Hot pickups tend to distort easier.

And resistance isn't always *the* indicator of output.

 

[uOpt]

Re: hot pickup output?

Yes, the "output" thing is bogus. Of course giving the output in "Kohm" is very much more bogus but let's leave that aside.

There are very few pickups that are actually louder. PAF style pickups have 8 Kohm of awg42 wire and Alnico magnets. A 16 Kohm pickup has awg44 wire, about the same amount of winds. It might have an Alnico pickup, but often they have ceramic that compresses when Alnico doesn't, further limiting the "output".

The only thing that I have experienced as noticeably louder is stuffing an A8 magnet into a Custom or JB class humbucker. That makes it actually louder.

Of course specific EQ in the rig can interact with the frequency spectrum coming from different pickups to make some pickups appear much louder. If you boost mids to hell and then go compare a C5 and an Invader you'll have the Invader sound louder, even though it isn't with a neutral EQ.

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: hot pickup output?

to me, hot=thicker mids from the pickup that distort more easily. usually, higher resistance=thicker mids.

 

[Stef]

Re: hot pickup output?

also hotter= more compressed and artificially sounding versus more open and natural tone from lower output pups

 

[Despair]

Re: hot pickup output?

There are very few pickups that are actually louder. PAF style pickups have 8 Kohm of awg42 wire and Alnico magnets. A 16 Kohm pickup has awg44 wire, about the same amount of winds. It might have an Alnico pickup, but often they have ceramic that compresses when Alnico doesn't, further limiting the "output".

Actually, you can get a lot more turns of wire in the same space with finer wire. I think you meant the same coil mass or volume, amount is ambiguous at best there.

 

[uOpt]

Re: hot pickup output?

Actually, you can get a lot more turns of wire in the same space with finer wire. I think you meant the same coil mass or volume, amount is ambiguous at best there.

No.

According to my rough calculations the 14 Kohm class awg43 coils in a Custom and the 17 Kohm class awg44 coils in the JB/DD should have about the same number of winds. A 8 Kohm awg42 PAF should be a little but not much behind.

Maybe an actual pickup winder can chime in but then most boutique winders don't make thin wire pickups.

 

[GoDrex]

Re: hot pickup output?

Ok - so what about the idea that you should "balance" the neck pickup with a hotter (higher DC resistance) bridge pickup, because the volume level will be dramatically different if you don't?

I think the reason a higher DC pickup can be used in the bridge spot is because it will be darker, but the higher treble nature of the position the pickup is in means it will still sound ok. The lower resistance pickup goes in the neck slot, because you need more treble in that position. Is it really a volume issue at all? I'm not sure.

 

[dominus]

Re: hot pickup output?

Ok - so what about the idea that you should "balance" the neck pickup with a hotter (higher DC resistance) bridge pickup, because the volume level will be dramatically different if you don't?

I think the reason a higher DC pickup can be used in the bridge spot is because it will be darker, but the higher treble nature of the position the pickup is in means it will still sound ok. The lower resistance pickup goes in the neck slot, because you need more treble in that position. Is it really a volume issue at all? I'm not sure.

I think it's best to both look at the EQ measurements on the tone charts, *and* (if you're using a neck pickup, I don't), go with one that's got lower output than the bridge, however the output is measured.

I've got a few "neck" pickups in bridge slots in some of my guitars, and they work perfectly. The Dimarzio Evolution Neck actually has more treble than mids and bass, according to their EQ chart.

 

[uOpt]

Re: hot pickup output?

Ok - so what about the idea that you should "balance" the neck pickup with a hotter (higher DC resistance) bridge pickup,

That isn't universally true. Try a 8 Kohm '59 in the neck of a Les Paul or a hardtail Strat. It can bring in more volume than a DD or DC in the bridge in the same guitar, easily.

because the volume level will be dramatically different if you don't?

No it won't generally. I might, though, depending on guitar and as mentioned general EQ curve in the rig.

 

[Despair]

Re: hot pickup output?

No.
According to my rough calculations the 14 Kohm class awg43 coils in a Custom and the 17 Kohm class awg44 coils in the JB/DD should have about the same number of winds. A 8 Kohm awg42 PAF should be a little but not much behind.

Maybe an actual pickup winder can chime in but then most boutique winders don't make thin wire pickups.

It's roughly 2411' of 42AWG to hit 4.0K Ohms, according to this calculator. 2411' of 44AWG is 6.25K resistance. That's a pretty underwound JB coil, there. 2411' of 43AWG is 5.17K. From what I understand, you also get slightly more turns from the same length of thinner wire, since it's smaller diameter and builds up coil diameter a bit less quickly.

(By that site, a Custom coil should be 3360', and a JB 3163')

So your rough calculations margin of error doesn't match up with that, or practical experience. A coil from a '59 doesn't perfectly cancel hum when paired with a coil from a Custom.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: hot pickup output?

No.

According to my rough calculations the 14 Kohm class awg43 coils in a Custom and the 17 Kohm class awg44 coils in the JB/DD should have about the same number of winds.

Probably pretty close.

A 8 Kohm awg42 PAF should be a little but not much behind.

Not true. 14k/43 packs a much bigger wallop than any 8k/42. By my calcs and experience, probably equal to a +/-10.5k/42 pickup. Maybe if the 14k was A2 and the 8k was A8, but otherwise forget it.

Maybe an actual pickup winder can chime in...

At your service.

...but then most boutique winders don't make thin wire pickups.

I do.

 

[Despair]

Re: hot pickup output?

Using the numbers from that pickup winder's calculator, the Custom has 39.4% more wire length than an 8K PAF, and the JB has 31.2% more than the PAF. That's the minimum extra turns you'd get (doesn't include any correction for the smaller diameter allowing more turns from less wire length).

 

[uOpt]

Re: hot pickup output?

Re: the amount of winds.

Here are my old calculations. Copy'n'pasted, not sure they make full sense.

[begin copy n paste]

awg:
- 42: 553/3 Ohm / 1000' 5.421 O/m
- 43: 714/3 Ohm / 1000' 7.011 O/m
- 44: 864/3 Ohm / 1000' 8.495 O/m

                                Pickup D/C:
wire:           8Kohm   10Kohm  14Kohm  16Kohm  18Kohm
------------------------------------------------------
- awg 42        1500m   1850m   2600m   2950m   3300m
- awg 43        1150m   1400m   2000m   2300m   2550m
- awg 44                1200m   1650m   1900m   2100m

That means that a 14 Kohm awg 43 such as the Custom actually has more
winds than a 16 Kohm awg 44 such as the JB/DD. The former has about
2000 meters of wire, the latter 1900. But the JB doesn't only have
less wire length, since the wire is thinner the coil is smaller. This
evens out some of the winds, so number of winds is probably about
equal.

As a result, the JB, although it looks like it has a more powerful
coil, actually has the less powerful but more compact coil. The added
D/C resistance electrically drags down the resonance peak
independently of what happens magnetically strings, which fattens it
up somewhat.

But overall this explain some phenomenons that look contra-intuitive
at first. Namely, the JB coils retain more life if used with an A2
magnet (generally considered a not so powerful magnet) than using A2
in the Custom coils (which results in a pickup with very little
treble).

You will also see that companies that make well-balanced pickups such
as Seymour Duncan pretty much always arrive at about the same amount
of wire used for a pickup. There seems to be a definite sweet spot
around 2000 meters.

Sometimes less wire is used such as for PAF like pickups and for
speciality pickups that use different styles of polepieces than the
standard 6 slugs + 6 screws. Examples as the Screamin' Demon and the
Full Shred.

[end copy and paste]

 

[ACH91332]

Re: hot pickup output?

To be very basic a hot pickup just hits the front end of the amp harder. It's not louder or anything it just has a tendency get you more preamp distortion. The Super D was made to have tons of output so it could slam amps (probably mostly Marshalls) hard so that you get more distortion without have to go and mod the amp. Output isn't really a measure of volume it is just measuring how much it hits the front end of your amp. You ideally want a lower output PU in the neck not because of it being too loud but it being too compressed in comparison with the bridge pickup. You won't really want to play clean on your bridge then switch to the neck having a mild breakup. As far as pickups being loud or quiet I've noticed it to be a more perceived volume based on EQ differences between different pickups.

As for the whole DC resistance thing I don't find it very reliable with judging output since radical winds can get you sometimes a very high DC rating with low output or a low DC rating and high output. Dimarzio posts overall output and DC resistance on all their PU's which is cool to look at between various different types of pickups. As far as lower resistance leading to a brighter tone and etc. I've found that to be the case too generally.

The hotter the pickup the more it makes your amp clip. Hotter pickups tend to be darker and tend to have more compression (not 100% true but mostly true). I have an amp with tons of gain on tap so I like to use moderate output pickups because I hate the very closed and compressed tone that hot pickups tend to have. Lower output pickups are more dynamic and sensitive to my phrasing where as hot pickups are compressed and I don't really like the ease of play they provide. It actually makes me mess up which tends to be the opposite of most people I guess.

 

[Despair]

Re: hot pickup output?

Your calculations are fairly close, barring you appear to have rounded off at 14 & 16K, where I worked from SD specs, and I worked for 1 coil, you did both.

So your data supports my conclusion that there's a pretty large difference in turns between any production Seymour Duncan 42AWG pickup and the finer wires, which is what I said. But in the 43/44 case you are right, they're not significantly different in turn count.

Sometimes less wire is used such as for PAF like pickups and for speciality pickups that use different styles of polepieces than the standard 6 slugs + 6 screws. Examples as the Screamin' Demon and the
Full Shred.[end copy and paste]

Full Shred isn't that much less, unless it's 44AWG. Anybody know for sure?
You missed the Distortion neck for another oddball. Also another one I'd love to have the wire gauge confirmed on.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: hot pickup output?

I noticed people talking about the DC resistance in regard to output, but so far the only corellation I can make with DC resistance is how bright or dark and/or distorted the pickup is. The output level is all pretty much the same. Lower resistance seems to equal brighter. High resistance seems to be a bit darker and doesn't sound as nice clean for whatever reason.

For comparison, on a scale from 1 to 10 - the LP needs to be set at around a 3.8 for an optimum input level. My strat with Fender Hot Noiseless pickups needs to be at about 7.5 or so (this means the output of the strat is a lot lower).

So what is a hot pickup? I don't really understand it.

OH then THATS why the Fender Vintage noiseless with resistance at 9.4k
are shipped with the 1meg "bonus" pots
to roll that bass off

ahhhhh