How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

[Christopher Caruana]

So companies like Fender and Gibson have everything from aged pickups to aged finishes, is there any thing else they can do to get the MORE accurate? Will they eventually hit a ceiling where they absolutely can't get any more vintage correct/accurate? Do you think companies will ever find a way to age the actual wood itself?

 

[jmh151]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

Quality control on vintage instruments was often inconsistent, I think the goal these days is to get a vintage correct tone with modern playability

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

Using non-catalyed lacquers so that the lacquer ages like it used to, and old-growth lumber, the way pretty much all old wood used to be (the crap wood of the old days was better than "good" lumber today) would be the only huge steps remaining. But they are also the two that are almost certain never to happen. The reissues have got very good on most levels. But the guitar companies can't make old trees magically appear, and don't have the desire to use the crappy old lacquers that will look like **** in 10 years.

 

[regan]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

I hope this post doesn't get taken out of context & it's only speculative as I haven't had the oppurtunity to play one of the originals, but I have to think a custom shop 50's or 60's from either Gibson or Fender crafted by their top luthiers is probably a better instrument overrall than a production model from that era whether it be a '52 tele 54 strat or 59 lp.
It's the rarity & collectabilty of the latter that sets the financial value as well as the fact both fender & gibsons purpotedly mass produced garbage in the '70's
For example it was in the late 60's early 70's that 58-60 LP's became revered, now would a custom shop '59 reissue 10-15 years old be as good or better than what a real 59 would have been in 1969-1974?

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

I hope this post doesn't get taken out of context & it's only speculative as I haven't had the oppurtunity to play one of the originals, but I have to think a custom shop 50's or 60's from either Gibson or Fender crafted by their top luthiers is probably a better instrument overrall than a production model from that era whether it be a '52 tele 54 strat or 59 lp.
It's the rarity & collectabilty of the latter that sets the financial value as well as the fact both fender & gibsons purpotedly mass produced garbage in the '70's
For example it was in the late 60's early 70's that 58-60 LP's became revered, now would a custom shop '59 reissue 10-15 years old be as good or better than what a real 59 would have been in 1969-1974?

Yep.


People forget that manufacturing was pretty ****ty back in the day . . . inconsistencies were the norm. Ten necks from the same manufacturer would all feel different. Fretwork on one would be better than another. The components used in the electronics would have more drift in values and be less precise. Mistakes happened all the time. Your average player from the 60s would likely choose a completely different instrument were the huge numbers of less expensive guitars that are available now available at the time.

 

[regan]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

Yep.


People forget that manufacturing was pretty ****ty back in the day . . . inconsistencies were the norm. Ten necks from the same manufacturer would all feel different. Fretwork on one would be better than another. The components used in the electronics would have more drift in values and be less precise. Mistakes happened all the time. Your average player from the 60s would likely choose a completely different instrument were the huge numbers of less expensive guitars that are available now available at the time.

Yup I'd say it's only 10% or so of those 58-60 gibsons that have set the price for the rest & if you're a pro or semi pro muso a second hand custom shop reissue is going to be a far superior instrument to the remaining 90%. same for fender
If you're a collector an intact serial number & original hardware & finish is king

 

[AlexR]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

I think we are building better engineered guitars, and with better consistency.
Its just the raw materials that are a thing of the past.

Even some of the metallic parts are hard to source with total accuracy.......you get guys like Throbak who do very short runs of precisely the right vintage alloys and the cost/unit is through the roof.
But there is no incentive for Gibson or Fender to try and get the fine details right.......nor Duncan with building PAF clones for example. The inconsistency back in the day was where much of the magic lay.....but there is no way that you'd ever settle for that in today's 'every product has to fit together like a top-end Citizen watch' mentality.

And the small incremental changes (and then the short run TH series) is a masterstroke of upselling. Why would you want to make it perfect when you have years of great marketing up your sleeve.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

It's just the raw materials that are a thing of the past.

old-growth lumber, the way pretty much all old wood used to be (the crap wood of the old days was better than "good" lumber today)

This.

Accelerated drying helps a little but, unless you begin with suitable wood, all the other fetishistic obsessing over "vintage accurate" component specifications is pointless.

For the majority, it is wiser to make the best of what we have to work with. It is still possible to luck out. A bunch of less than ideal elements can result in a worthwhile musical instrument. The rest of the time, it would make better sense to slum it with today's lumber and use present day pickup designs to correct for any gross tonal deficiencies.

In many working situations, the subtle differences between a genuine vintage piece, an American-made "accurate" replica and an import of the same general style are unlikely to communicate to an audience. This is why I happily, sincerely and repeatedly recommend the Squier Vintage Modified series bass guitars. Chuck in some Duncan, DiMarzio or EMG pickups and get on with it.

 

[VinceT]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

.....but there is no way that you'd ever settle for that in today's 'every product has to fit together like a top-end Citizen watch' mentality.

Right, and I think it's only in guitar-land that this makes any sense to (some) people! I seriously cannot think of any other high-end product where relic-ing adds perceived value to the extent it does with guitars.



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[Funkfingers]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

Er, Fender American Vintage Re-Issue models should not be confused with their Custom Shop Relic models.

Obviously, there is some overlap in the specifications and general constructional quality between these two series but they are not directly interchangeable.

The law of diminishing returns applies here. The "improvement" from one series to the other is not proportional to the price increase.

 

[AlexR]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

One thing that bears repeating, is that there is no test yet (in any way) to predict the tonal qualities of wood in a finished product. Not can you predict wood blank compatibility - especially cross species.

Its why the wood selection for the Custom shop level of guitar can end up either just the same as any other level......or completely blow your mind.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

I seriously cannot think of any other high-end product where relic-ing adds perceived value to the extent it does with guitars.

Where else would visible plugged nail holes be a plus point?

Here, I am thinking of the Fender Brown's Canyon / Old Growth Redwood Telecaster and Stratocaster. These used ex-railroad lumber. Fender promoted the blemishes as some kind of badge of authenticity.

 

[VinceT]

Re: How accurate can vintage RI models keep getting

Where else would visible plugged nail holes be a plus point?

Here, I am thinking of the Fender Brown's Canyon / Old Growth Redwood Telecaster and Stratocaster. These used ex-railroad lumber. Fender promoted the blemishes as some kind of badge of authenticity.

Yup. Call me an idealist, but if I want my guitar to have nail holes, I'd better be the one using a hammer as a pick!


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