How do I become a more traditional player?

[Robert Delahunt]

(Warning: long post) I had some questions about how to be more of a "traditional" or "old school" guitar player. I was doing some experimenting tonight....

Usually I have my guitar's volume and tone knobs at 10. Let's use the Stratocaster as an example. Mine's a Lite Ash, so the tone knobs are neck and middle, with bridge being totally without a tone knob. Three true single coils.

I plug into a Boss ME-50 and then into a Fender Pro Junior. Usually the Pro Junior's tone knob is at "12 o'clock" and the Volume is moved to match. The Boss ME-50 knobs for Level are always at "12 o'clock" or lower, and the main output is at "12 o'clock". I did this for the recording session we had, playing around, and when I heard it played back, it sounded WAY too generic for me. Either that or too familiar.

Tonight I tried something totally different. I'm wanting to be more of a "traditional" guitar player, since those guys (Slash being one of the last, at least in my uneducated opinion) get great tone. I set volume and tone knobs on my Strat at all 5's, set the amp volume to a decent level and the tone on the amp until the bridge was almost unbearably bright (but works good for solos ala Boss OD-2 Turbo Overdrive setting). Now, from the guitar, I can increase and decrease neck and middle pickup brightness using the tone knobs, and I have louder and softer using the volume knob on my guitar. Then I pick what distortion or overdrive, tremolo, etc, on the ME-50 based on the voicing of it, not how loud it is.

I was much happier this way. My tone no longer sounded generic, but more "customized."

So my question is: is that the right way to do it? I've never thought to ask how to set amp and guitar knobs before: usually I set 'em all to "12 o'clock" or 50% on the amp and all max on my guitar. How do I become a more traditional player? How do/did those guys get such a unique sound on their rigs? (aside from fingers themselves). This is not a "it's all in the fingers" thread, as I'm leaving that out of the equation for right now. I'm focusing on guitar and amps. How should I do things? How do I get more mojo?

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Tone is all in the fingers bro! LOL! I think my tone is decent most of the time and I usually use a flat eq. For rhythm I scoop mids and for leads I add the missing mids. I use eq for the effect but flat eq for general playing. Is it right or wrong? No idea bro. Had no problems so far.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Tone is all in the fingers bro! LOL! I think my tone is decent most of the time and I usually use a flat eq. For rhythm I scoop mids and for leads I add the missing mids. I use eq for the effect but flat eq for general playing. Is it right or wrong? No idea bro. Had no problems so far.

Well yeah, I did that, too: I would turn on "FAT", i.e. "add mids" feature when soloing, if I remembered, or I'd be using Boss OD-2 Turbo Overdrive since it's more fat and has more low mids....

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Quit worrying about what numbers are attributed to the settings. Grab your guitar and ME-50, sit down in front of your amp, and just start tweaking. When it sounds good, make note of the settings.

Anybody who tells you that there are proper settings for anything is full of crap. The ONLY thing you can do is spend time playing and tweaking.

I can say that I usually dial in my tones with the knobs on the guitar at 10, but that's just me, and my tones never stay untweaked for very long. I also use amp gain and at least one source of overdrive, so my volume knob doesn't actually adjust how loud my guitar is.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Quit worrying about what numbers are attributed to the settings. Grab your guitar and ME-50, sit down in front of your amp, and just start tweaking. When it sounds good, make note of the settings.

There ya have it.

 

[wahwah]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Settings are important of course, but like it or not, it really does have to start with the hands. In fact, I would even suggest that the most important work would be done without any amplification at all. What the "old school" players had that it is quite often missing from the modern player is strong hands, and a vast dynamic range. Strong hands enable you to employ a broader range of expressive techniques with greater effect, as opposed to the skinny strings/ stupidly wide vibrato/ one vibrato for everything, ad nauseum, kind of approach of many modern players. Similarly, the picking hand's focus becomes shifted to dynamic range as opposed to speed, so that you are able to produce everything from the gentlest gracing of the string to a full blooded "digging in" style attack, and all points in between, with a high degree of control over the results. These techniques need to be developed because the "old school" player is generally dealing with much less preamp gain than the modern player, and so the energy really has to be generated by the hands, as opposed to being generated by fizz and speed.

Without these skills, no amount of tweaking or equipment purchasing will provide you with what you are looking for. The answer doesn't lie in eq or volume settings, nor does it lie in the pickups or speakers. If you have developed the manual skills, the equipment will be pushed around at your will, and from there a refinement of the specific tone that best represents your "voice" can be attained. Without the "old school" skills, your sound will always suffer from the same shortfall that can be heard in many modern players.... weak, ineffectual hands, too much preamp fizz and a mono-dynamic, two dimensional emotional "flatness" to their playing.

As a generality, most modern players are playing from their heads, approaching music as a science, and thinking their way through the next arpeggio or scale. In contrast, the old school player plays from the groin and solar plexus, there is little or no thought involved, and thus the end result is infinitely more emotional and sexual in its content. You can't get that from the tone controls on an amp. Taking the approach of "leaving (the hands) out of the equation for right now" will leave you constantly frustrated, because that is indeed where you need to start to even have a chance.




Cheers................................. wahwah

 

[Ocifer]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

(Warning: long post) I had some questions about how to be more of a "traditional" or "old school" guitar player. I was doing some experimenting tonight....

Usually I have my guitar's volume and tone knobs at 10. Let's use the Stratocaster as an example. Mine's a Lite Ash, so the tone knobs are neck and middle, with bridge being totally without a tone knob. Three true single coils.

I plug into a Boss ME-50 and then into a Fender Pro Junior. Usually the Pro Junior's tone knob is at "12 o'clock" and the Volume is moved to match. The Boss ME-50 knobs for Level are always at "12 o'clock" or lower, and the main output is at "12 o'clock". I did this for the recording session we had, playing around, and when I heard it played back, it sounded WAY too generic for me. Either that or too familiar.

Tonight I tried something totally different. I'm wanting to be more of a "traditional" guitar player, since those guys (Slash being one of the last, at least in my uneducated opinion) get great tone. I set volume and tone knobs on my Strat at all 5's, set the amp volume to a decent level and the tone on the amp until the bridge was almost unbearably bright (but works good for solos ala Boss OD-2 Turbo Overdrive setting). Now, from the guitar, I can increase and decrease neck and middle pickup brightness using the tone knobs, and I have louder and softer using the volume knob on my guitar. Then I pick what distortion or overdrive, tremolo, etc, on the ME-50 based on the voicing of it, not how loud it is.

I was much happier this way. My tone no longer sounded generic, but more "customized."

So my question is: is that the right way to do it? I've never thought to ask how to set amp and guitar knobs before: usually I set 'em all to "12 o'clock" or 50% on the amp and all max on my guitar. How do I become a more traditional player? How do/did those guys get such a unique sound on their rigs? (aside from fingers themselves). This is not a "it's all in the fingers" thread, as I'm leaving that out of the equation for right now. I'm focusing on guitar and amps. How should I do things? How do I get more mojo?

I have to agree with the others: the way you play shapes the tone very much, and it always helps to be aware of dynamics in your playing. I use my ToneLab through my amp often, but for recordings, I usually go straight into my amp or through a single OD pedal and then into the clean end of my amp. Often, less gain allows your sound to be more articulate. I like to set my amp/pedals so that you can always skirt the edge of clean/dirty with the dynamics of your fingers, and the volume on the guitar.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Settings are important of course, but like it or not, it really does have to start with the hands. In fact, I would even suggest that the most important work would be done without any amplification at all. What the "old school" players had that it is quite often missing from the modern player is strong hands, and a vast dynamic range. Strong hands enable you to employ a broader range of expressive techniques with greater effect, as opposed to the skinny strings/ stupidly wide vibrato/ one vibrato for everything, ad nauseum, kind of approach of many modern players. Similarly, the picking hand's focus becomes shifted to dynamic range as opposed to speed, so that you are able to produce everything from the gentlest gracing of the string to a full blooded "digging in" style attack, and all points in between, with a high degree of control over the results. These techniques need to be developed because the "old school" player is generally dealing with much less preamp gain than the modern player, and so the energy really has to be generated by the hands, as opposed to being generated by fizz and speed.

Without these skills, no amount of tweaking or equipment purchasing will provide you with what you are looking for. The answer doesn't lie in eq or volume settings, nor does it lie in the pickups or speakers. If you have developed the manual skills, the equipment will be pushed around at your will, and from there a refinement of the specific tone that best represents your "voice" can be attained. Without the "old school" skills, your sound will always suffer from the same shortfall that can be heard in many modern players.... weak, ineffectual hands, too much preamp fizz and a mono-dynamic, two dimensional emotional "flatness" to their playing.

As a generality, most modern players are playing from their heads, approaching music as a science, and thinking their way through the next arpeggio or scale. In contrast, the old school player plays from the groin and solar plexus, there is little or no thought involved, and thus the end result is infinitely more emotional and sexual in its content. You can't get that from the tone controls on an amp. Taking the approach of "leaving (the hands) out of the equation for right now" will leave you constantly frustrated, because that is indeed where you need to start to even have a chance.

Cheers................................. wahwah

I've basically got those concepts. Like I said before, it wasn't about hands at this point. I was classically trained in college, and I listened to Andres Segovia for the love of hearing him play. I started on acoustic and classical. I'm not saying I've arrived, but those points I've already got. Like I said, I'm talking amp and guitar settings, not hands at this point. However, I do appreciate the point you raised, and I agree with you 100%. I usually play through amps with either very little preamp or none at all in terms of drive. I prefer a clean amp, then color with pedals, but only enough to color it, not to dominate the sound.

So thanks, and I agree, but that wasn't what I was looking for.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

I have to agree with the others: the way you play shapes the tone very much, and it always helps to be aware of dynamics in your playing. I use my ToneLab through my amp often, but for recordings, I usually go straight into my amp or through a single OD pedal and then into the clean end of my amp. Often, less gain allows your sound to be more articulate. I like to set my amp/pedals so that you can always skirt the edge of clean/dirty with the dynamics of your fingers, and the volume on the guitar.

That's basically what I'm looking for: MOJO. And that's basically how I'm talking. I got the point of the hands, and I agree 100%. But I'm looking at knobs.

I think I already sort of answered my own question, but also other people who chimed in here, even if it wasn't exactly what I'm looking for, helped me to understand better.

Like I said before, I got the hands and picking part down, even if I'm not an expert with it. That's a constant learning thing, and I'll always be wanting more articulation, more dynamics, more flexibility; more mojo. But in terms of amps and guitars, I don't think they have enough mojo to respond to my playing. It's as if I'm seeking something I can't do with my fingers.

For example, can you, using your fingers, make a speaker break up more than it was designed? I think somehow I did myself a disservice by going all-out clean: there are times where I want more speaker breakup and can't have it without setting some mild but super fast tremolo pedal. Sometimes I find myself doing a rapid back and forth picking to do sort of the same thing.

Maybe I should've bought some alnico blue speakers.

It's like I want more amp and guitar nuance.

Anyways, I hope that makes sense. I'm having a hard time quantifying what sound I'm looking for. It's as if when I switch to neck pickup with mild overdrive and play some closely spaced notes (i.e. like a D and E on the same octave, etc), I get breakup, but I want more breakup, and more weird of a breakup, than I get. I don't want to have to switch to a harder overdrive to get it.

It's as if my gear is too accurate. I'm not sure how to say it.

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

That's basically what I'm looking for: MOJO. And that's basically how I'm talking. I got the point of the hands, and I agree 100%. But I'm looking at knobs.

I think I already sort of answered my own question, but also other people who chimed in here, even if it wasn't exactly what I'm looking for, helped me to understand better.

Like I said before, I got the hands and picking part down, even if I'm not an expert with it. That's a constant learning thing, and I'll always be wanting more articulation, more dynamics, more flexibility; more mojo. But in terms of amps and guitars, I don't think they have enough mojo to respond to my playing. It's as if I'm seeking something I can't do with my fingers.

For example, can you, using your fingers, make a speaker break up more than it was designed? I think somehow I did myself a disservice by going all-out clean: there are times where I want more speaker breakup and can't have it without setting some mild but super fast tremolo pedal. Sometimes I find myself doing a rapid back and forth picking to do sort of the same thing.

Maybe I should've bought some alnico blue speakers.

It's like I want more amp and guitar nuance.

Anyways, I hope that makes sense. I'm having a hard time quantifying what sound I'm looking for. It's as if when I switch to neck pickup with mild overdrive and play some closely spaced notes (i.e. like a D and E on the same octave, etc), I get breakup, but I want more breakup, and more weird of a breakup, than I get. I don't want to have to switch to a harder overdrive to get it.

It's as if my gear is too accurate. I'm not sure how to say it.

Your hands have to be as accurate as your gear.

No offense meant TR, but gear is just a means to an end, not the end itself. If your amp is 'accurate" then the nuance needs to come from you...

I do have a few small tips for you...

1. For one week, bag the ME-50.....play with no effects and listen to the difference that your touch does to your tone.

2. Play your guitar from about 10 or so feet away from your amp and have someone else physically move the tone knobs to get your tone. Do not ask them how the knobs are set...tell them if you need more or less of a certain thing. Do it by ear, not sight.

3. Don't let your gear hamper you. Mold the gear to you...make it bend to your will, not the other way around.

Good luck

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

+1 to what BB said.

Additionally, ditch your pick for awhile. My playing gets much more dynamic, inspired, tasteful, organic and just real when I'm sans pick.

 

[tone4days]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

joe has it

play without the boss for a while ... guitar --> amp ... experiment with the amp CRANKED LOUD BEYOND BELIEF, then control the overall loudness with a) your picking hand attack and b) the guitar's volume knob ... then make tonal variations with a) your right hand attack and fretting hand positions, b) the pickup selector switch, c) the guitar's tone knob ,and d) the amp's tone control

that would be about as traditional as you can get
t4d

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

I would recommend plugging into the Pro Junior so you can crank it up. I don't know it's wattage, but I'm fairly certain it's less than a Twin Plus, you'll get a little more of the break up you're looking for.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

1. For one week, bag the ME-50.....play with no effects and listen to the difference that your touch does to your tone.

I will do that.

play without the boss for a while ... guitar --> amp ... experiment with the amp CRANKED LOUD BEYOND BELIEF, then control the overall loudness with a) your picking hand attack and b) the guitar's volume knob ... then make tonal variations with a) your right hand attack and fretting hand positions, b) the pickup selector switch, c) the guitar's tone knob ,and d) the amp's tone control
that would be about as traditional as you can get
t4d

I will do that.

I would recommend plugging into the Pro Junior so you can crank it up. I don't know it's wattage, but I'm fairly certain it's less than a Twin Plus, you'll get a little more of the break up you're looking for.

Yeah I don't use the Twin. It sounds like bees right now. It needs some fixing. The output transformer has got to be stock and worn out, so it's not as loud, but yeah, I'm using the Pro Junior as my main amp right now.

That sucker (15W) is loud for such a small amp. I'll play with it. Thanks everyone!

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Do the amp thing too...by ear not sight. You may not believe what you will end up liking.

 

[Osensei]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Well I think ppl get confused whenever this subject comes up. For example a frequently hear questions like, how can I get Santana's tone? I have to ask, "which Santana tone?". The tone he had on Abraxas or the tone he had during the Caravanserai, Welcome period, or the Zebop, Marathon period, or the modern Supernatural period.

You see using Santana as an example, there is not really a single "Santana tone". Rather his tone has gone through various changes over the past few decades. Nevertheless, ppl don't seem to be aware that his tone has ever changed! This leads me to believe that ppl don't really know what the hell they're referring to when they talk about "tone"!

They say tone is in the fingers! To some degree, I have to agree with that statement. However, I tend to classify techniques related to touch such as pick attack, hammer ons, pull offs, slides, glissandos, staccato, legatto, bends and so forth as having more to do with phrasing rather than tone.

Tone therefore, is a variation of output signal from your electronics that may be influenced by the players ability to use phrasing techniques to generate emotion! However, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that tone is independent of the amplification / projection device / gear and is therefore solely in the fingers. For example, the amp has to be able to produce the desired harmonics and overtones.

As a matter of fact, a player that has mastered touch will listen closely to the frequencies that come from their electronics. Because, they know full well how to produce the desired frequencies by touch and they will not purchase gear that won't deliver the goods!

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Do the amp thing too...by ear not sight. You may not believe what you will end up liking.

+1
I was gonna suggest that he turn the knobs of the amp with his eyes closed, and get to the sound he likes to hear, THEN see where the knobs are.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

An update.

This weekend I set up my rig as follows: Pro Junior volume 2 tone 12, stratocaster volume 5 tone all 5's (bridge pickup is the one without a tone control), and Boss ME-50 in Boss OD-2 Turbo Overdrive mode.

I got a nice sound out of my guitar, and got a compliment from it from my friend, who is a tone perfectionist, and a big Black Crowes fan.

I tried replacing the ME-50 with my friend's Fuzz Face and did an A/B comparison. I didn't know that the Fuzz Face would use my guitar's volume knob as its master volume, so at first we thought that the batteries were dead, but then he noticed where my volume knob was. I loved the sound of the Fuzz Face, and the tone of the ME-50 on that setting (FACE, i.e. Fuzz Face) was very similar (just not as touchy with where your volume knob is on your guitar). He also owns a Tube Screamer, and the A/B comparison lead to the conclusion that it was a very good emulation on the ME-50: very close to it.

So we jammed out for a while. The only problem I ran into was retraining my hands (i.e. when I solo, I had to remember to increase my volume knob, but placement of the volume knob on the Lite Ash is very convenient to switching modes). I also tried switching to bridge for leads, which went well. It was almost too bright for me, so my conclusion will be that I'll try tone = 6 on the guitar, tone = 9 on the amp, so that I can get the bridge to not be as overbearing when I need to use it.

Anyways, this setup was a LOT better: my tone no longer sounds generic.

Thanks for all the help, everyone! I'll keep you guys posted as I continue my tonal quest!

So far I feel that having volume on 5 and tone on 5 (or 6 next time I try) is good because it allows me to control things from the guitar. I don't have to reach over to the amp, which can be very annoying at times; or reach to my floor processor.

 

[Mincer]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

I am probably the last person on this board who should talk about this, but listening to a lot of old blues recordings (we do a few lost songs from the 40s and 50s), the tone is all over the place (so is the tuning, too!). Most of the time it is high and piercing, and since I tend to go for a low-mid, reedy sax tone myself, it is really amazing to me what music was created despite the gear or lack of musical training some of these people had. I think it was more of a case of 'lets record this song...there is an amp in the corner, so use that one...gimme an E...yeah we're in tune...1,2,3,4..'

Using a strat into a fender amp is going to get you a classic sound, no matter what the settings...yes, its generic, but it works well for lots and lots of people. If you love that sound, then be proud of that. If not, sell everything and get equipment no one else uses and toss out any classic licks and chord progressions.

 

[NecroPolo]

Re: How do I become a more traditional player?

Your hands have to be as accurate as your gear.

1. For one week, bag the ME-50.....play with no effects and listen to the difference that your touch does to your tone.

(...)

3. Don't let your gear hamper you. Mold the gear to you...make it bend to your will, not the other way around.

Good luck

The most useful advices, man!


Totally second that. So many ways lead to heaven, my way was simplification. In the early nineties I used /guess what/ an anyway great Boss multiFX unit for a while but my playing wasn't as organic and alive as intended. During the times I left everything and ended up using guitar + cable + amp most of the time. First I felt to be pretty naked and limited without the features of the FX unit so I was "forced" to make the basic gear sing more and more. Soon I realised that less is much more, the response of a simple setup was far more alive and allowed for me to pack more of myself into music as I learned to change tone and character without touching a pedal or a knob.